Decarbonizing Fast Ferries with Artemis Co-Founder David Tyler

Stop Requested. Welcome to Stop Requested, the podcast where we discuss everything transit. I’m your co-host, Levi McCollum, director of operations at ETA Transit. And I’m your co-host, Christian Londono, senior customer success manager at ETA Transit.

Welcome back to Stop Requested. Christian, how are you today? Hey, Levi. Doing great. Just really excited about today’s episode. What, what do we have today? Yeah. Well, today we have a very special guest, David Tyler, who’s the co-founder and managing director of North America of Artemis Technologies. David, how are you? Hi, guys. Very good. Thank you. Thank- thanks for having me on, on today. Absolutely. It, it’s our pleasure, and we’re, we’re very excited to learn more, uh, because you, you have a, a, a very innovative technology that you’re, you’re bringing on today’s podcast, and

I think it’s a bit out of the norm for Christian and myself, so we’re going to learn a lot. We’re hoping that our listeners are going to learn a lot. Uh, first, can you tell us, what is Artemis Technologies? Yeah, of course. So

Artemis Technologies is a, I guess, in simple terms, we’re a maritime tech company focused on decarbonization of high-speed vessels. Um, and today, we’re delivering real, real-world solutions to customers who are looking to increase their efficiency, reduce emissions, and provide better, uh, service to their customers. It’s probably worth going back to a little bit around the history of the company. So originally, the founding group, we were, uh, an America’s Cup racing team called Artemis Racing com- competing in what is kind of the blue ribbon event of, of yacht racing, and we were competing in the- on these incredible hydrofoiling boats that were going four times the speed of the wind. They’re made of lightweight composite materials. And, and really, that, that kind of technology development with wind, high-performance sailing kind of, kind of moved, had a huge jump forward in terms of innovation. And so whilst we were racing, we wanted to bring that technology we developed through, um, through that event into the commercial maritime space to support decarbonization of maritime transport.

Wow. That is a very fascinating history for the company, uh, and it just goes to show you don’t really end up in the place that you would expect when you start. At least that’s what it sounds like from the outside. Um, where, where’s the company today? Like w- where is this maritime technology being applied if we wanted to go see it in person, for example? Yeah, so, so today, well, the company’s headquartered in the UK, in Belfast, in Northern Ireland, and then I myself am out in, in New York in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. Uh, the company’s seven years old. Um, we’ve gone through a really heavy phase of R&D over the first sort of five years, and then went into series manufacture last year, and started delivering our first vessels to customers towards the end of last year.

So we have boats operating in the UK, so one up in the Orkney Islands, uh, vessels operating eh- uh, across Europe as well. And then next year, we start manufacturing in the US as well as delivering boats to customers in the Middle East. So we’re really at this kind of phase of, um, full commercialization, moving out of that R&D phase into scaling up manufacture and really delivering the product to customers. I see.

W- where are the vessels going to be manufactured? You, you said in the US, but, uh, where’s the location? Yeah, so we, we signed an MOU with a company called Delta Marine in Washington State, so they’re based just outside of Seattle, and then we’re also establishing manufacturing presence on the East Coast, um, likely to be building a location up in Maine as well. Excellent. Um, it’s great to see that type of manufacturing for this high tech, uh, being done in the States. Uh, so your role as a managing director of North America, and of, of course, you are the, the- you’re the co-founder of Artemis Technologies, what is your day-to-day like?

Yeah, and I get- I get- I kind of wear two hats as well. So I’m kind of group CMO for the- for the company, um, and then I’m, uh, managing director here in New York. So one is kind of overseeing a lot of the, um, go-to-market strategy generally for the company, but primarily focused on the US right now. We’re really building our business here.

So establishing relationships with our manufacturing partners, uh, developing relationships with our key first customers in the US, and, and really growing the business in, in North America, which we see as a- as a really exciting market for us internationally.

Perfect. And, and did you always have this sort of entrepreneurial drive and a, a, a desire to get into transportation technology or did this just happen, you know, because of your, your background in sailing? I think I’ve always had, um… I’ve always wanted to run a business myself. I think that always excited me, you know, building something up. Um, and I, in my history, I’d started as an entrepreneur, um, probably almost 20 years ago now.

So I set up my own talent management business in London, so representing athletes and sports people, and one of my first clients was, um, a guy called Ian Percy who’s a double Olympic gold medalist and silver medalist, um, sailor. Uh, and Ian was- went on for winning multiple Olympic medals to go and lead the Artemis Racing America’s

Cup challenge. Um, and then I think that was back in the end of 2012 after the London Olympics, and, and it was at the same time that I’d sold my first business. And Ian had asked me whether I wanted to come out and help him, um, support him running that, uh, America’s Cup challenge out in San Francisco….

I think, you know, back then, I didn’t see myself out here doing what I am today. But it was really exciting to be part of that America’s Cup challenge, see the potential of this technology, and then work with Ian and the other co-founders, uh, to build out Artemis Technologies to what it is today. Oh, that’s so awesome.

That, that is really a, a fascinating story there. Uh, uh, h- how many people are a part of that co-founding group? I’m curious. There were seven of us in total, so myself, Ian, the CEO, and then really the lead engineering team from the race team.

So, you’re saying that most of these folks that were involved with the racing, eh, eh, they ended up being part of this founding group that created Artemis, right?

Yeah, exactly. And I think, I think it’s, um… You know, we had this, we had this mission of decarbonizing maritime transport with this, um, eFoiler system that we call it. So, it’s really a combination of a number of different technologies together. So, from, from the kind of high performance yacht racing side, we were bringing, um, you know, the, the expertise in manufacturing lightweight composite boats, whereas traditionally, in marine space, particularly the commercial marine space, boats are normally made of aluminium, uh, aluminium or steel. Um, and composite is five times stronger and half the weight of aluminium, um, and that, that, that was gonna become really, really important as we move forward with developing this tech.

Because effectively, we have this hydrofoil which is a wing under the boat. Um- Right. And as a boat accelerates, it creates lift, pops about, up out of the water, and that reduces the drag and inc- increases efficiency. So, effectively, we’re almost like an aeroplane. Um, and so being as light as possible becomes really, really important because if we can be light, then we can carry more batteries which gives us more range, um, and a better product for our customers. And so, we really brought that expertise from the America’s Cup, but that was only part of the solution, and the eFoiler system combines, um, electric drive unit which is integrated into the foil itself. Um, and so we, um, redeveloped our electric motor that was being used in, uh, motorsport at the time because we needed something that was very small and very energy-dense ’cause it kinda sits under the water, um, w- inside the foil itself. So, we needed something that had a really small diameter so it had less drag and less friction going through the water.

Uh, we also developed our own electric battery system too using cells from the automotive sector, uh, frankly just because there wasn’t a maritime battery on the market that was- Right. … light enough or fit-for-purpose. So, we, we had this core base of, uh, marine engineers, but really needed to build the team out with s- with people that had skills in electrification. In, in, in, um… You know, before the, the show started, we were having a conversation, and

I wanted you to share a little bit more about the, the challenge, right? With, um, you know, electric battery boats, uh, you know, that, that you guys saw in, in how your innovative technology that you’re bringing from, you know, like, this racing, uh, boat side of the business was able to solve that problem. Uh, could you, could you speak a little bit more about that?

Yeah. And I think just looking big picture-wise, maritime emissions globally account for three, three percent of all CO₂, and I think 15% of all NOx emissions as well, and so it is a, you know, it is a challenge and it’s something that needs to be addressed. Um, and, but the big challenge with marine electrification is, you know, you’ve heard of, um, range anxiety on cars. Well, it’s even worse with boats. Right. Water is 800 times denser than air. So today, simply putting in batteries in standard vessel designs, they’re significantly compromised by the speed and range at which they can operate. Mm-hmm. And so, what we’ve done is by kind of combining electrification with this hydrofoiling technology, we’ve, uh, re- reduced the, the drag of these boats, increased the efficiency, and really unlocked the potential of viable range and speed for high-speed maritime operations.

Wow. And, and, and let me ask you, so with your technology, uh, and again, it’s just, it’s, it’s almost incredible how it sounds. You’re talking about being able to lift the boat almost from the water , and then it’s almost like it’s floating over the water. Ar- al- almost looks like flying over the water. Uh, do you have this technology patented? Is there any other competitors kinda doing something similar or this is something that is very unique to you guys that, that you were able to, uh, develop and you’re the only ones currently providing this type of technology that lifts the boat, uh, off the water, reducing that drag?

Yeah. And, and, you know, hydrofoiling is not a new technology. It’s been around for 100-plus years. Um- Hm. But I think what we, we’re kind of bringing a new approach to that, um, and so I think his- historically, as these hydrofoiling boats in the past, you know, commercial boats we’re talking about that are powered by engines, they’ve surface-piercing foils, and so they’ve kind of had an… When they’re surface-piercing, they haven’t had any sort of active stabilization, had so they’re, we call them kind of self-stabilizing. But because they’re self-stabilizing, they have a lot of these foils, they have a lot of material under the water, so in the past, hydrofo- hydrofoiling ferries, there’s a few in, in Greece and there’s a few around the world, they would provide a benefit in terms of ride comfort going through the waves because you would be out on the water, but they wouldn’t really provide a benefit in terms of efficiency because of the drag of all the appendages under the water. Right. And then there was a amazing thing called the jet foil which had been developed by Boeing…. um, and were sort of operating back in the ’90s and there’s still boats operating today in Asia. And that, that used a, um, a, you know, it had control surfaces and was a fully submerged hydrofoil. But the challenge there was that the boat was using jet fuel as a fuel and it had a water jet system, um, which meant that the foils weren’t particularly efficient because of the cost of that jet fuel made the… It meant that the cost of operation of the boats, um, was quite high, so it never really took off internationally. Um, and so the combination of electrification, um, composite foils, the use of more sophisticated control surfaces mean that our foils can be incredibly efficient and the whole system from battery through to propeller, um, is incredibly efficient and it enables us to really keep the cost down from an operator perspective.

So, it sounds like different technologies that have to come together to make this happen, have finally evolved to that level where you, you’ve been able to combine almost the latest and greatest in, you know, d- different materials. This technology, uh, it’s at the level where it can compete with some of the, uh, legacy technologies that some of the ferry boat operators are currently using.

Yeah. Exactly. That’s exactly the case. And the exciting thing about our technology is that because we’re flying out of the water w- s- we, we’re using significantly less energy to move fast, um, anywhere between 70% to 90%. And so Wistar boats may be a little bit more expensive than the current diesel, but, you know, diesel boats available. Because we’re using so much less energy, the fuel savings over the lifetime are significant. Um, for example, that, you know, there’s a route in New York where I’m based, I can see it out my window here, operating from Wall Street out to Wa- Rockaway. Um, putting our, uh, 150-passenger ferry on that route would save

NYC Ferry, um, a couple of million a year just in fuel costs, plus the added benefit of reduced service and maintenance because the, um, you know, because of the electric systems on board are far easier to service and maintain than a nice combustion engine. Plus, the benefit of flying over the water, you know, the, the customers on board, um, it really reduces the effects of seasickness because we don’t have a diesel engine as well. We just have electric motor under the water. The boat is far more quiet. There’s less vibration. And of course there’s no fumes as well, so it’s a far more enjoyable experience on board.

Yeah. And, and the benefits seems very similar than, you know, zero emission buses, for example. You know, less vibration, less moving parts. Also, I think there’s close to 3,000 less parts in a, in a electric bus compared to, you know, a diesel engine. You know, there’s no transmission. There’s not, you know, a bunch of fluids. And, and I would imagine from what you said then of course the maintenance is, is reduced as well, the maintenance cost. Um, I know buses a great deal of that is, uh, visual inspection versus having to replace a lot of parts just because you’re, you’re operating, uh, from batteries versus, you know, a combustion engine. So that, that, that is… That sounds to be very similar, right? Like, in terms of the benefits.

Yeah. Exa- exactly that point. And, and with electric vehicle, yeah, you know, you can have a telematics system. It’s far easier to monitor the electrical components within the boat than the kind of, um, old school mechanical systems used for, um, particularly maritime, you know, propelling these vessels.

So, eh, eh, with this, um, kind of like cutting edge technology, eh, h- how do you see, uh, Artemis fits into today’s transportation landscape?

Eh, eh, eh, you know, is it like the new technology that is coming in that will be replacing a lot of those, uh, traditional combustion engine or where does it fit? Like is, is it for small, uh, eh, you know, trips like, you know, ferry services that are not longer than certain amount of, you know, nautical miles? Like, where, where does it fit in, in today’s la- l- landscape?

Yeah. So we’re, we’re really focused on decarbonizing, um, c- commercial marine vessels that either move people or fast. And with today’s battery chemistry, we’re, we’re kind of limited to around 50 nautical miles at high speed, so goods we kind of say the cruising speed is around 25 knots, so 13 mile an hour. And so we’re targeting, um, high-speed passenger ferries like those in New York, in San Francisco, in Dubai, in Sydney Harbor, um, plus high-speed boats operating in ports like pilot boats. Um, this technology has applications to support decarbonization of search and rescue, um, maritime coast guard agencies as well, as well as sort of s- smaller water taxi services.

They’re kind of the primary markets for us. I see. And, and, and what would you say have been the biggest challenges when it comes to, to innovate in this, especially when you’re using cutting edge technology i- is new.

I w- I would imagine there’s anxiety for folks that have used to using, you know, the same legacy technologies for years and then maybe they talk to you and they’re not so sure if they’re ready for it in…

Infrastructure-wise and those things. So w- what are some of those big challenges when it comes to innovate, uh, innovation and bringing new technology into, into the market? Well, I think there’s a couple of things. There’s kind of… There’s challenges building the business from the start. So, you know, very… I think building deep tech or building hardware hasn’t… It’s, it’s very difficult and there’s a long time from sort of initial concept to actually getting some- getting a prototype on the water and then getting a, you know, fully certified reliable robust system on, on the water as well. And so for us there were challenges in terms of fundraising, particularly early on…. um, I think that maritime, especially back, you know, seven years ago, probably wasn’t an exciting industry for a lot of investors. I think that’s kind of changed now, which is really exciting, but we definitely had a fundraising- raising challenge. Um, and the thing that really changed the game for us was the support from the UK government. We were really fortunate to have, um, a major, uh, success in securing R&D funding, uh, through UK Research and Innovation, and then later, Innovate

UK, supported by, um, initiatives from the Department of Transport in the UK. And without that sort of government backing and funding, we just wouldn’t be able to move forward and accelerate, um, the way we have.

Um, we also had challenges around securing talent and getting people to come to Belfast, particularly during COVID. Um, you know, no one really wanted to move their families during that time, uh, and frankly, you know, these skills in, um, software development, control systems, batteries, electrification generally, they’re really sought after by a number of, um, industries, you know, whether automotive, aerospace, and outside the transport sector too. So getting ahold of those people was really, really tough, and I’d say they were probably the biggest challenges that we faced getting the business going to where we are now. Um, and then, you know, you get- you get the funding, you get the first prototype on the water, you prove that the technology works, and then comes the later challenges of convincing your customers that it works. And- and the real way that we approached that was, you know, having- having our demonstrate- having our boat on the water. We launched the first vessel back in

2022, Pioneer of Belfast, which was a 12-meter work boat. Um, but at the same time we walk- we launched the exact same sister ship. So the same hull, the same cabin, the same boat effectively, just with two gasoline outboards. And so we were able to run these boats side by side and- and prove to our customers, on any given day, the benefits of the tech. So whether it was the fuel efficiency, the ride comfort, the reduction in wake, meaning these boats can operate at high speed in busy waterways, we’ve got, um, thousands of hours of real-world data proving the benefits of this tech. So David, you said that there are two boats that are operating in Belfast. Uh, one is a work boat. What- what is the other one? And is that other one a- a passenger boat or… Could you explain that a little further? Yeah. Well, no, that was- that was our prototype. So- Okay.

… you know, we wanted to- we wanted to launch the prototype vessel, but we wanted to launch the alternative, um, fossil fuel version as a- as a comparison basically. It was something we did a lot in the Americas, covers around a two-boat testing program.

Because we wanted to, you know, validate the performance of that technology against a diesel boat on the exact same time, exact same day, exact same conditions, really showcasing the benefits of that tech. Um, and since launching that first, uh, work boat back in 2022, we’ve launched various models of the EF12 range. So we have a- um, a water taxi called the Xscape. Um, we have a CTV, crew transfer vessel, for, um, taking technicians out to offshore wind farms. We launched that boat earlier this year and ran the first demonstration with, um, Vattenfall up in Aberdeen in Scotland. And then we have a- a wide cabin, sort of work boat version as well, that’s used for, uh, y- moving people either within ports and harbors or, um, providing small ferry services for islands and eco-resorts around the world. So the first few boats have been launched the last f- couple of years, and we’ve got a really exciting year next year where we’ll be launching the first

350-passenger ferries that are gonna operate in the UK, as well as our first pilot boats that are gonna be delivered to customers in the UK, Europe, and the Middle East.

So I- I’ve been on a- a few ferries in my life. Not- not that many though. Is the 350 passengers, is that pretty standard for a- a ferry boat or… I’m sure they come in all shapes and sizes, but, uh, w- why the 350 number there? Is that- is that just the… Is that the pretty standard figure that you were aiming for? It’s- it’s one- it’s

150. Um, and it- Oh, I’m sorry. … I guess it is. Yeah, it is typical, I would say. So in Dubai, um, the local transit authority there runs, I think they’ve got t- ten

150-passenger ferries there. Um, in the US that 150 passenger mark is a difference in terms of the certification and requirements of ferries. Um, and it’s

150 is typical. So there’s a number of 150-passenger ferries operating in New York, um, and across the US. So yeah, uh, you know, we’re kind of… I’d say the 150-passenger ferry is really a stepping stone, um, on our product development pathway, and then in the future we will be developing larger vessels and we’re pretty confident of stepping up to say, 300,

400 passengers, um, in the not too distant future. Very interesting. Uh, what type of amenities do the ferry boats have?

So, um, really- really typical on the- on the 150-passenger version, um, I would say the typical kind of requirements from customers are having two toilets. So one that’s fully accessible and then a second one. Um, some of the customers have a catering space on board. Uh, I think a big driver more recently is having the capacity to have a lot of bikes on board as well so have ample storage.

And then depen- you know, probably in Dubai there’s perhaps more tourists, so probably less bikes and more space for, um, luggage…. is important to, to locations like that.

But I think it’s interesting, this kind of push for more bikes, because it’s really part of this global movement around the world to encourage more people to cycle and to walk more where possible. I think cities where they’re becoming incredibly congested, it’s becoming difficult to add more roads or rails, railway networks within the cities themselves, they are looking at water-based solutions to provide additional capacity and reduce that congestion.

Um, and that’s the great thing about ferries, that you do have the space, um, and you do have that capability to take a bike. I don’t know if you guys have tried to take a bike on a train before but often there’s very limited space. It’s really, you know, you’re n- it’s really difficult to get a bike on board.

Um, and so, I think that, you know, ferries really have a part to play in water-based cities where they are trying to do that.

Yeah. I, I have not taken a bike on a, a train before but, but, you know, just even, even on a bus, uh, trying to put it in the front when you’ve got people waiting on you and it’s, it’s kind of nerve-wracking. So, uh, I can, I can understand, um, y- you know, that, that hesitation from folks to want to bring bikes onboard. But it, it sounds like you’ve, you all have that figured out, at, at least in terms of your, um, e- in terms of your engineering and planning. Uh, you know, I’m, I’m curious, does this, uh, have any impact on how a customer would pay for the ferry boat or for a trip? Um, y- you know, I, I think that in, in most cases, at least in sort of an, uh, an economic way of thinking, if the v- if the vessel is more expensive then that’s passed onto a customer. I know that’s not always the case with if you’re operating for… or if you have one of these vessels at a public transit agency, for example. Um, but I’m, I’m curious, had, have you seen any instances or do you, do you have any inclination that, uh, the, the more expensive vessel even, you know, upfront, would bring a higher fare cost for the passenger? Yeah, I think there’s two things here to talk about. So the first one- Okay.

… is whilst our vessels are slightly more expensive than a diesel boat, um, you know, there’s a CapEx cost. But because we’re using so much less fuel and because, uh, because of the significant reduction in operation, service and maintenance, that our boats are cheaper over their lifetime. Um, and on busy routes, say, in New York, San Francisco, Sydney, we’re talking tens of millions of dollars over their lifetime. Um, and that’s why this technology is so exciting. And

I think on the second point there is, has been this big drive in water-based cities right across the world, um, re- rethink about how they can better use their waterways. Um, to as, as c- you know, as these cities become, um, increasingly more congested because it’s the fastest, the quickest and the cheapest way to add capacity. Um, but y- you know, you hit the nail on the head. These boats typically have been expensive to run because they burn a lot of fuel going fast through water. Um, and often in cities the, I’d say, the ferries are probably on a similar subsidy cost as, say, buses. Um, and more expensive than, say, the Subway.

But the, the kind of cool thing and, you know, I’ve given New York in the example, NYC Ferry didn’t exist in 2015 and now they’ve got 38 ferries on the water and they actually just had their rec- record

August in terms of ridership. So they’re, they’re kind of in- interested in, um, using a ferry. It’s growing and growing all the time in cities like New York. And as that interest grows, the efficiencies and the eco- economies improve all the time. So actually, their subsidy is getting less and less for the taxpayer to b- to have that burden. Yeah. Thanks for that detailed answer. Uh, uh, you know, I’m, I also am thinking that you’ve had to run a- across some, some challenges along the way. What’s been maybe the, the most surprising lesson in the last seven years of, you know, starting this company and getting the, the technology to where it is today?

I think the, I think it’s probably been around, um, regulation and getting the technology certified. Um, I think,

I think this is probably common in a lot of industries and sectors where the level of innovation and the technology development, I think the authorities, the certifying authorities have really struggled to keep up with the progress. And so for us, I think it’s been, it’s been a test and it’s been a challenge is to, you know, is develop a, a solution but then actually in some instances, some instances, to actually be having to develop something that’s not optimal because of the requirements from the regulatory authorities.

So it’s been a case of kind of working with them pretty closely, you know, in, in lots of different countries across the world, um, to show them why the technology is safe, it’s robust, it’s reliable, and sort of work, work with them on developing new rules for deployment of this tech because they’re, you know, they’re, they’re is… When we started, there weren’t really any rules for batteries used on boats. Um, there weren’t rules for, specifically for, um, you know, um, autonomous fly control systems for falling craft. So that, that’s something that’s certainly been a challenge and perhaps when you’re starting off, it’s maybe something you underestimate but certainly not something we underestimate now.

Yeah, a- and I think that’s similar than, you know, with battery electric buses. Um, a lot of the benefits, uh, we have not … Uh, they’re- they’re kind of like projected but not fully witnessed, right? Like there’s … uh, and- and the technology keeps advancing, right? Like it … And I’m doing this comparison with bus because it’s kind of like what I, uh, know a little bit more of. Uh, but, you know, you’ll be the one to tell me if I’m, you know, correct or not. But, you know, uh, with the buses, some folks got some of the early electric buses on the road and then, of course, they- they had, you know, some amount of years with them where they saw some of those benefits, but then, you know, they- they had a, you know, very short range. Like the first battery electric buses, they pretty much had to be a small downtown circulator because they didn’t really have much range. Uh, but now the latest and greatest buses, you know, they have a lot of range, they have, you know, much more capabilities because, uh, the technology has evolved. So those two things are- are- are happening, uh, simultaneously. One is the amount of folks that have experience with the technology is increasing, uh, but it’s still a- a small amount because it’s a new technology, uh, disrupting an industry. But then also the technology is evolving so rapidly that the first applications are not really a true reflection of what the latest technology can do today. So, you know, that- that even those experience- uh, experiences of those that have actually put it in place, they’re- they’re not fully reflective of the latest and latest is- that you are, uh, implementing. What- would you say that that’s the case, that, you know, there- there’s still the technology is new and, you know, some folks have not really seen the full potential of- of where the technology is at today? Yeah, I think that’s- that’s definitely the case, but- but what I’d say is with- with boats in particular, you have quite a bit of volume in the hull to house batteries. Whereas I think sometimes with buses and- and- and cars, the battery is so integrated into the actual structure of the vehicle that it can be quite difficult to change those batteries or to upgrade them to the latest technology. Whereas with us, we

… The way the boats are and because of that kind of volume and space that you have, it means that it’s very retrofittable to upgrade the batteries in particular to the latest technology as- as those previous batteries enter end of life. And I think over the last couple of years, we’ve probably seen a 10% increase in the energy density per kilogram, uh, of our NMC, um, battery, uh, chemistry, and

I’m sure there’s gonna continue to see improvements. And the thing that’s kind of quite exciting is the potential implementation of solid state batteries where we’re talking about both a reduction in the cost by use of less precious materials, but also three times the energy density for a given weight, um, which is- which is really, really exciting. So, um, I think, you know, what you mentioned sounds very familiar to what I’ve heard, uh, from folks that have to do with, you know, those first electric buses they got, like, you know, they- they- they had constraints. Uh, a lot of the constraints were related to the batteries, with the amount of power it could hold, you know, how fast you could charge it, and- and- and- and then, of course, the space in the vehicle itself. And, you know, some manufacturers they’re putting the batteries on top, some in the bottom. You have to talk about center of gravity and all these different things when you’re putting all this weight, and it’s just so complicated, right? Like to find adequate space to, uh, put batteries and then you’re adding weight as well. Versus with the boat you said that that’s not a big issue, and you guys have that ability of, uh, upgrading your- even your existing customers to get the latest and greatest battery technology. So le- let me ask you a question, actually a couple questions more on, uh, battery technology, uh, for, uh, vas- vessels. But one is, uh, what’s kind of like your warranty for batteries? So that’s kind of like the- one of the most critical parts of a battery electric vehicle, right? And then that society, just like with people have cars, if my battery goes bad and they … Like there’s no warranty, now my vehicle’s just sitting there. Like the- I have just like a, you know, very expensive paperweight. With- with the- with the buses that started coming out, that was another thing, like, you know, what’s my warranty on these batteries?

So with- with your, um, you know, boats, wha- what’s- how does that warranty looks like? You know, there’s- there’s- there’s basically different options with us. So we can have a basic standard warranty, 12 months, or you can have an extended warranty. Um, but more

… We’re also seeing more, um … That’s if you buy the boat outright, but we’re also seeing a lot of customers’ interest in leasing their vessels as well. Right. Um, and we provide kind of a full service lease where we provide the boat, everything, and then we, you know, we replace the batteries as required to keep that boat operating over the c- the term of the lease. And I think that- that model is quite exciting for customers because in certain instances we’re seeing the cost of the annual lease payment equal the cost of the saving that they would have made from, um, transitioning to an electric boat. So basically the reduction in cost of running their diesel boat pays for the lease for the electric vessel, so effectively it’s cost neutral. Um, particularly that’s the case in Europe with- with the cost of electricity and the cost of fuel.

Hmm. Yeah, it- it- it … That- that- that’s a peace of mind. Sometimes in a … A lease, I think if you’re transitioning technologies and you have a little bit of anxiety related to that, that gives you a peace of mind because it puts more on the vendor, so like on you, you know, to make sure those batteries are operating the- the … you know, my ferry is operating at optimal conditions and then I’m leasing it. And that might be even the- the best way of, uh, approaching it, uh, into the future. But at least initially that could be a- a good way to start a pilot in trying out, you know, a few of these vehicles within the service. Now, I- I wanted to ask you, there’s actually all these different questions that came to my mind, I wanna hear … I’m- I’m gonna make it just easy for you. So two things. One, uh, how do you charge these boats and, you know, how, um-…

how long it takes to charge. You know, talk to me about infrastructure, like I know buses you have pontacograph, and you’re connecting on the top, or you’re plugging them in, so I want to hear about infrastructure for boat charging, or even opportunity charging if it, uh, exists for this application. And then the second thing is safety. How is the- the safety, uh, different than maybe a- a diesel ferry or- or boat that is similar? So, infrastructure, battery electric infrastructure, and then safety.

From a charging perspective, we’re really leveraging technology developed for the automotive space. So on the 12-meter BF12 range, we use a CCS2 connector, or CCS in the US. Um, on the F12 we have a standard, um, installed capacity of

412 kilowatts, and we can charge at 360 kilowatts. Um, and with 85% sort of utilization of the battery means that we can charge that boat in around an hour. Um- Wow. … and then the same again on the ferry too. We are going to be using the MCS standard connector, so it’d be w- with the capability to charge up to 2.8 megawatts with a liquid-cooled cable. So we will be able to charge the ferry as well in one hour. Um, but we- we- we also work with customers to make sure they’re optimizing their charge rate based on the duty cycle that they have- Right. … to make sure that they, um, extend the life of the batteries as much as possible.

Excellent. Yeah. That- that- that sounds interesting. That’s- that’s quite fast charging, uh, you know, uh, uh, I know with the vehicles, with the buses, you’re looking at four or five hours, uh, charging to get, you know, 100%, and- Yeah, we- we- we- … I mean, it- it varies- … yeah, we have- … but, yeah. Yeah, we have a

800, you know, not, normally 800 volt system which means that we can charge faster on the smaller boat. Um, and I mean, that’s one of- one of- one of the reasons why we went with that architecture versus a standard sort of 400 volt, um, automotive architecture. So on the- on the second part, uh, the safety, uh, and now, you know, let’s talk about safety. Uh, are these boats in terms of features, uh, in, you know, design, uh, very comparable safety-wise? Or does this have some newer safety features, or- or by design is safer in a given way? C- could you tell me a little bit about, uh, safety? Yeah. I think the- the interesting comparison for people is probably looking at the safety around batteries compared to other transport sectors. So within, you know, when… Say that there is a vehicle fire in your car, um, you know, you simply basically can get out of that car.

That’s not really an option when you’re on a boat, um, because you may be out at sea. So the technology, or the safety technology within, uh, maritime batteries is really around preventing thermal runaway or thermal e- event within the battery itself. Um, and so we’ve actually developed our own safety system, um, and it’s patented, to basically slow down the event, any sort of thermal event within the battery. And I have to say, the actual maritime authorities and the class societies, they are really on top of this, and the test is very difficult to- to, um, to pass. And so when you have a battery, you basically need to stop either the, you know, one cell, um, that goes into a thermal event. You need to prevent propagation to the cell or the module next to it for a period of 24 hours, um, and that’s the test that you need to- you need to pass in order to be able to use these batteries in your boat. So the safety of marine batteries, I’d say, far exceeds that of the safety systems in the automotive sector, and that’s, you know, that’s something really important and, um, it’s something that we’ve- we’ve worked closely with the regulatory authorities and I know the- the wider industry has as well to make sure that those rules are fit for purpose. If I understood correctly, the batteries are underwater? They are… Well, they’re not underwater, uh, say, but they- they’re in the hull themselves. Mm. So the electric motor on our boat is underwater, it’s housed in the nacelle, which is in the foil. But the batteries themselves are in the hull, um, but because of that and because you’re on the water, you know, our batteries are IP67 certified, so it means that they can be fully submerged underwater, and that’s part of the test with the class societies to get type approval.

Excellent. Well, thank you for- for sharing those details. That- that sounds definitely much safer. Um, and so let me ask you about i- innovation in the future. So, uh, I mean, uh, you are bringing latest and greatest, so you’re already innovative in… So I- I’m wondering about your mindset. Uh, do you think that, uh, in the, you know, upcoming future there’s gonna be some applications for, um, you know, automations, the, you know, autonomous vehicles or, uh, AI, some sort of a apply for, uh, maritime… Yeah. Definitely. I think the autonomy, um, is an in- really interesting one for the maritime space. Um, and for us in particular. There’s, you know… Our boat operates at really high speed, and so at the moment, you know, an autonomous system, I don’t think there’s anything in place that would really work. Um, we’re… From- from our perspective, we’re developing a collision avoidance system at the moment, and I think once that collision avoidance system is being proven to be s- you know, rock solid and reliable, then it does open up the door for, uh-…

kind of, you know, fully, fully autonomous high speed ferry services in cities. Um, there are al- already a number of au- aut- autonomous ferry projects in cities around the world, primarily focusing on smaller boats that operate at slow speed, so that’s certainly coming. Um, and I think from our perspective, there could be, you know, there could be big jumps in terms of automation of manufacturing processes, particularly around the, the composite structures to try and increase efficiency and bring costs down there. So, that’s certainly something to keep an eye on. Well, that, that sounds very interesting. You, you are definitely, uh, the cutting edge of technology. So, uh, I think we’re gonna see more and more of, of you in the industry and, and, and just tie to that, uh, I want to hear from you, if you could fast-forward 10 years, uh, 2035, uh, what would you want Artemis to have accomplished?

I think I, you know, I’d, I’d love to see, um, Artemis deploy our ferries to water-based cities across the world, you know, in Sydney Harbour. It’d be amazing to see it going past, you know, our ferries falling past the Sydney, the Sydney Harbour Bridge or, um, the Statue of

Liberty here in New York, um, you know? That, for me, I think that would be… We would have reached our mission. Yeah, that sounds like a, a good dream to have. Uh, hopefully that comes true for you and for Artemis. Uh, just a couple of rapid fire questions to close, David. I- if you had, you know, uh, your best piece of advice for someone that’s i- interested in, you know, maybe maritime, uh, technology or transportation generally, what would it be? What advice would you give them?

I think the best bit of advice is, you know, make sure, you know, what’s the problem you’re trying to solve? I think really focus on, you know, have that customer-centric mindset whenever you’re developing the product. I think it can be really easy to kind of, you know, to develop a product and have, and have your own idea of what the customer wants, but I think you always really need to go back to the customer. Make sure you’re developing something that the customer really needs, um, because if you, if you develop something and no one wants it, then you’re not gonna, you know, you’re not gonna have any impact or change the world at all. And, and the other thing I’d say is, you know, resilience. I think you hear it a hundred times, but I’d say that resilience and, you know, just powering through, overcoming all those challenges and just keeping that focus on your end goal is really, really important.

I love it. Yeah, that’s really great advice for pretty much anything in life, um, uh, you know, being resilient and, uh, just, uh- Easier, easier said than done. It absolutely is, yeah. It, it’s so hard, there are… I’m sure there are many times where you’re, you’re faced with a, a challenge and, you know, you wanna throw your hands up, but you, you have to keep going. Uh, we experienced that at ETA Transit, uh, quite, quite often.

It’s just part of it. Uh, l- lastly, as far as my rapid fire questions go, what’s your most memorable public transportation e- experience? And it could be maritime, I, I know that that’s, uh, where your specialty lies, but, uh, if you have, you know, a train or a bus experience you could share with our audience, that’d be great.

Yeah, I have one. Um, when, when I was with Artemis Racing, the America’s cup team, I was living in San Francisco, um, and we were… The America’s cup team was based over in Alameda, which is over the bay, um, next to

Oakland there. So, I used to cycle down to the ferry building, Downtown San Francisco, and then get the San Francisco Bay Ferry over to Alameda. And, you know, that was just… I just absolutely loved that ’cause I, I, I’m from the UK. I spent a lot of time living in London and getting the, getting the, um, Underground during rush hour, which wasn’t always a pleasant experience. But it was always a great experience, getting down, cycling down and being on a ferry, getting your laptop open, having a copy, coffee, answering a few emails and sort of, you know, cruising past Alcatraz and the, um, and the, uh, and the Bay Bridge as well. It was just, it was just a fantastic way to get to work.

Oh. That, that sounds really lovely. Yeah, I, I can see why that would be your most memorable, uh, transit experience. Uh, David, this has really been great. It’s been a pleasure to have you on the podcast and to learn more about you and Artemis Technologies. Uh, for our listeners, where can they go to find out more and to learn more about you? Yeah, you can visit artemistechnologies.com, um, or you can connect with me on LinkedIn. Excellent. That’s easy. Well, David, thank you again for joining us and thank you to our listeners for listening in this week. We’ll be back next Monday, as always, with another episode.