Supporting the Mental Health of Frontline Transit Workers with Foursquare ITP’s VP, Sandy Brennan

Stop Requested. Welcome to Stop Requested, the podcast where we discuss everything transit. I’m your co-host, Levi McCollum, Director of Operations at ETA Transit. And I’m your co-host, Christian Londono, Senior Customer Success Manager at ETA Transit.

Welcome back to Stop Requested. Christian, how are you doing today? Doing well, Levi. How about yourself?

I’m doing very well, and again, super excited for the guests that we have on today. Uh, today, we’re gonna be speaking with Sandy Brennan, the vice president and project manager at Foursquare Integrated Transportation Planning, and she’s also a recent awardee of Mass Transit Magazine’s 40 Under 40. Sandy, how are you? I’m doing great. Excited to be here. Yeah, we’re really excited to have you.

Uh, uh, you know, we came across your article in Mass Transit Magazine recently, and, and that was one that, uh, stood out to me, so I hope we’re going to be able to dig into that a little bit more and then, you know, also talk about your, uh, your role in the TCRP 245 report. So, yeah, but before we go into too much depth, I’d like for our- you to share with our listeners a little bit about your role at Foursquare ITP. What do you do there, and, and how did you, uh, become, uh, vice president at the organization? Um, well, I’ve been with Foursquare, uh, Integrated Transportation Planning for about 11 years now. Um, my role is, you know, senior project manager and vice president. Um, so

I really started out in transit service planning. Um, you know, I started working at a small transit agency, kind of learned about service planning, scheduling, that sort of thing. Um, and whenever I moved over to Foursquare ITP, I kind of just grew in that role and career and, um, took on a lot of projects that were related to service planning, bus service planning in particular. Um, and then that kind of evolved into, you know, how do you implement service plans and what are the operational characteristics that we need to consider as we do service planning and all of those things? And so that really evolved into, um, zero emissions work, uh, looking at, you know, different fuel technologies and how, uh, service planning kind of impacts that work. And then that evolved further into what are the workforce kind of implications of, um, of transit? And that’s kind of how I- I’ve grown in this role. So, um, what I do kind of as a project manager. Those are the types of projects I really work on. But that’s internally, Foursquare

ITP, uh, I’m also a vice president, and my role in that context is, um, overseeing kind of our staff development. So, I really work with our staff to, um, identify their career goals, um, grow as a professional in the industry, and really support that, and that really kind of plays backwards too into this, um, kind of niche I’ve, I’ve found myself in most recently around kind of transit workforce and, um, how to support our workforce better, and, and I think that’s what we’re gonna talk a little bit about today.

I really love that evolution, and it sounds like you, uh, you approach your thinking about, you know, transit i- in general with a very holistic perspective.

I- I’m imagining that that Um, also, uh, helped kind of propel you into this, uh, TCRP

245 report, um, of which you were the principal investigator, but, uh, you know, for our audience, can you explain, you know, what your role was there, uh, in writing that report, what the report was about, and, and how, if they’re at a transit agency, it, it might impact them?

Sure. Um, so TCRP Report 245, um, it’s Mental Health, Wellness, and Resilience for Transit System Workers. So basically, the research study, I was the principal investigator, and I worked with a team from, um,

Rutgers University, uh, so a couple of their transportation professionals, but also, um, some psychologists, uh, were on our research team, and I worked with some of our other folks at Foursquare. Um, and what we did was we really examined, um, kind of what challenges, uh, frontline transit workers have, um, in the industry and working in our field. I think it’s been an emerging issue that people are, are talking about a lot more, um, and recognizing that we need to be more supportive of our frontline workers.

So, what we did here was really kind of try to understand what, um, transit workers, what kind of challenges transit workers face really on the day-to-day in, in doing their jobs, and then we tried to also understand, um, how our agencies, transit agencies, DOTs, how are they, um, better supporting their workers so that they can be more resilient in their jobs, have a better, uh, work-life quality, and just generally be happier and healthier. Uh, uh, so, w- in your journey, w- was there a particular moment that kind of inspired you to, uh, to lead this type of investigation? You know, how did, how did you get there? I- I’m really curious about that because, uh, you know, I, I think it’s, it’s one thing to work at a transit agency and, you know, then go on to work in the private sector, you know, and, and help transit agencies, much like what we do at ETA. Uh, but, y- you know, taking that to the next level and then being a part of an investigative endeavor, that, that’s quite a bit different. I- I’m curious wha- if there was something there that motivated you to do that.

Yeah, that’s a good question. I, there isn’t any one precipitating event that I think inspired myself, but, you know, working at Foursquare, Integrated Transportation Planning, we do a lot of service planning. We do a lot of, you know, transport, transit development plans, uh, comprehensive operational analyses, you know, COAs, TDPs, that sort of thing. Um, and

I have a few clients that I’ve worked with, you know, for multiple years, um, on service planning, uh, projects and initiatives and kind of, you know, building them up, um, as transit agencies, as transit systems. So I’ve always been very interested in how to increase kind of capacity, um, and then, you know, Foursquare, we really try to focus on, you know, it’s our ethos to really create implementable plans. So in order to do that, we really kind of have to understand the operations side of things. Um, so kind of growing and, and learning more about that was kind of how

I got more interested in the operations side and, like, how do you dispatch? How, what kind of challenges are you faced with? You know, dispatching equipment, lining it up, queuing it up, like, getting the workers in. So that really kind of came around as, you know, this research project. I’d done a couple other things around workforce, so worked on the APTA, uh, Workforce Shortage Study that came out, you know, following COVID, whenever agencies were really struggling to get, um, operators in the door and retain them. Um, so this was kind of an opportunity to, like, delve more into that subject, because through that APTA research, I really started to see that, you know, operators were leaving, right? Because they found the job really challenging. They found the job hard to do. They felt unsupported in their roles. So the, when this TCRP opportunity came up, um, it really was like, “Ooh, I, I want to work on that.” Like, “I want to learn more about that,” and I kind of, you know, I feel like I’m, uh, I’m forever trying to learn more and learn new things just because I, that’s what motivates me as, as a professional. Um, I don’t want to do the same old thing all the time, cookie cutter, you know? So i- it was interesting, you know,

I like to kind of always have a research project going on under my belt in addition to doing, like, you know, the normal project work that consultants do. Um, so this was a really good opportunity to just dive more into a topic that wasn’t something that

I think I would normally get to talk about, you know, mental health and wellness in the context of being a transit bus service planner, right? So this is a cool opportunity and

I, I kind of took advantage of that. That, that, that sounds really awesome, and, and I think for all transit professionals, uh, regardless if they are in operations or planning or other support functions within a transit agency, um, you know, I believe that to get a full understanding of transit, you have to learn about all those different pieces, especially when you’re a transit planner and maybe you’re not as familiar with operations. So be able to learn the operations, it, it, it makes all the planning make sense, right? But something that I, I want to learn more about the, the TCRP report and, you know, something that I’ve learned myself as

I got in- you know, as a transit planner that first, you know, was in operations, then transit planning, then kind of like working close into operations, is that, uh, transit operations could be quite stressful because, uh, unlike maybe planning or, or su- support areas, uh, transit operations have a high degree of urgency. Everything is happening at the moment. You’re dealing with the, you know, public. So, you know, I’m curious to know about the key findings of your research. Like, could you share with us and, and our listeners where, what were some of those key findings related to mental health for, uh, transit workers?

Sure. So I, I’ll give some context. Um, so TCRP Report 245, it’s kind of broken into two sections. One is like the research report. Uh, we kind of delve into the issues, um, barriers, uh, challenges that transit agencies face whenever it comes to supporting, um, the mental health and wellness of, of their workers. Um, and then the second part is really a toolkit of solutions.

So this is meant to be, you know, very much applied research and, um, uh, a resource for transit agencies to be able to pick up and they can look at that toolkit and take the self-assessment and say, “Oh, this is a challenge that I’m seeing.” And then they can find a potential solution or suggested solutions. Um, but some of the key findings, you know, when we were doing the research part of it was, um, you know, workers really were feeling, frontline workers, whenever I say frontline workers, I’m talking about, you know, operators, people who, uh, work within, like, transit stations, customer service, anyone who kind of interacts with the public. But, you know, what we were seeing is workers were feeling very isolated and alone in their jobs. Uh, they primarily perform them in the field alone and they feel like they didn’t have the support of management, um, and they didn’t have a sense of community, right? Among each other, because they’re primarily, you know, they’re on the bus by themselves or they’re in the station with maybe another person or, um, or by themselves, and they feel like they just maybe didn’t have the tools or the training to really be successful in their jobs. And then the second thing

I’d say was a key takeaway was there’s a lot of mistrust, um, between workers and leadership.And some of that is stemming from the pandemic, uh, just feeling like, you know, they were left out there alone, exposed, um, and they just … There’s a little bit of resentment and there just needs to be a little bit more work done to rebuild that trust. And, and we, we talk about in the report how to address that. And then the final thing I’d say that’s pretty significant is we directly surveyed frontline workers with the help of transit agencies facilitating that for us. Um, but we included a couple, like, standardized health questions about anxiety and depression, and from those self-reported responses to those health questions, you know, we found that more than a third of the respondents have probable anxiety or depressive disorders.

So, that’s pretty significant, um, you know, whenever you think about what your workers are, are dealing with on a day-to-day basis, and that, you know, they really are suffering and we have to think about how we can support them more. Wow. That, that, that’s powerful and, and, and particularly bus operators, right? Like that, that’s just, uh, that, um, job classification where you have the most employees and almost that is common, uh, across transit, right? Like, transit operations, typically two-thirds of the employees are operations, and a large, uh, portion of those are, are bus operators, are people actually behind the wheel. And as you mentioned, they’re on their own. They come in first thing in the morning and they’re out and they’re there with the public, uh, and sometimes they might feel that they’re not supported, right? Like, they, they’re by themselves dealing with everything that is happening out there, uh, in the traffic conditions. But, uh, in terms of job classifications, and we’re talking about, um, you know, transit workers, could you expand on some of the different classifications that you guys were, um,

I don’t know, like, interviewing or, you know, assessing? Uh, you know, could you tell me what other positions besides bus operators? So, we did engage with like, um, anyone that would have been part of a field team, so bus supervisors, um, folks that were, you know, working maintenance and staffing, you know, metro stations, that sort of thing, um, train operators. We weren’t exclusive to just bus mode. I, I probably always generally talk about bus mode the most-

Mm-hmm. … um, ’cause I’m a bus service planner, but I was, uh, looking at all modes, including, you know, paratransit, um, operators and workers as well. So, we tried to- But it w- … catch a lot of ’em. … it was mostly the folks on, on the field, right? Like, that, that are out there working on- kind of like on their own? Yes. I mean, I would say most folks are working on their own in the field, and that was, like, the subject of the study, yes. So, um, could you tell us a little bit about that range of mental health challenges? What were some of the findings regarding, you know, those mental health challenges?

Right. Um, I think a lot of people felt like they didn’t have the right training, um, to address some of the so things that they encountered in the field. So for example, dealing with other folks that were having mental health crises or that were maybe unhoused and, um, you know, were hanging out in stations or in shelters and that sort of thing, and they’d have to encounter them.

Our operators and, you know, frontline employees are also often exposed to verbal and physical assaults, and I think we, you know, very much recognize the physical assault nature and, like, the impacts of that, but, you know, being screamed at and challenged and, you know, s- yelled at on a da- almost daily basis, that can also be quite traumatizing is what we, we found.

Um, and then I’d say , you know, when we asked them about how they accessed help or what they knew about in terms of, like, resources from their employers, you know, there was a mix of awareness in terms of what their employers offered, uh, as solutions or support, and there wasn’t a lot of satisfaction with what was being offered. So, I think there’s opportunity there to really talk to employees about, you know, what are their needs, what are the challenges that they’re facing, and matching that with, like, the resources that we can offer them.

So, let me ask you about, uh, COVID-19, um, because for a lot of transit employees, eh, was, you know, quite disruptive, but also, like, a time of adjustment and a lot of stress as well, right? Because there, a lot of things are changing, eh, eh, in- through

COVID and, and after COVID. Eh, is that something you guys were considering as part of your study? Did, did you see, you know, any findings related to, you know, that COVID-19, uh, for the f- frontline employees?

Absolutely. Um, it was definitely something that we asked about specifically, um, what the impacts were, and for those who were around during the pandemic, um, they definitely, you know, were highly impacted by, um, the pandemic itself. So, you know, they had coworkers that maybe passed away because they were exposed or, or they came home and, and brought it to their family and, you know, got their family sick. Um, so there was a lot of, um, kind of just fear, and fear that still resonated following…. you know, the vaccinations and, and, you know, work opening back up and the world opening back up. You know, that fear and trauma, you know, trauma kind of s- lingered, right, with those employees. And then, you know, a lot of employees also retired, uh, because of the pandemic, so they saw that as an opportunity. Um, some transit agencies, you know, asked for, uh, presented an opportunity for early retirement whenever they saw that they had to reduce service and things like that. Um, so the retirement cliff that we knew was coming already kind of accelerated, um, because of the pandemic. So, that also meant that we were getting rid of some really, or we were saying goodbye to, you know, really seasoned personnel that had been doing this maybe for 10, 15, 20 years, and we were bringing in people who maybe didn’t understand or weren’t prepared for the work that, you know, they were coming into. So, they weren’t prepared to be alone in the field, you know? They would get some sort of training, and then they’d be off and out and by themselves. Um, so this kinda led to a lot of staffing shortages whenever things started to open back up and, and service was starting to get restored. Um, and those staffing shortages were then being filled with staff that are, you know, working in transit operations for the first time, getting their CDL for the first time.

Um, and now they’re a CDL driver with, you know, operating heavy machinery, they’re customer service telling people how to use the system, and then they’re also collecting fares and dealing with, you know, a whole slew of, like, other issues whenever you’re interacting with the public.

Um, so it’s a very challenging job, and I think that that has caused a lot of people additional stress in their job, and has also created challenges with, you know, retention, of course. Um, so

I think there’s been higher levels of burnout related to that, and we see that, you know, people feel like they don’t have the support system, whether it’s just with colleagues or with their, their managers and supervisors, that they can, you know, find that support and be able to deal with that stress and come up with solutions and things like that.

Yeah, and, and, and that, that created a whole set of challenges, right? Mm-hmm. Because the moment that you have, you were, you know, short-staffed, so what I experience and, you know, was able to see firsthand, right, like, you have, uh, a lot of drivers that now are working a lot of overtime because the agency’s trying to figure it out, you know, “How do we go back to full service, which is what people needs?” Everything is opening up, uh, you know, kinda like post-COVID, and, and now people have to go back to, you know, their place of work and so on.

So, people want full service, and then, but the agency doesn’t have the staff and, and they’re trying to, during that time, find, find that sweet spot where, uh, they can put them a lot of service, but then without causing a lot of burnout and then resulting into more employees being, you know, either out sick or, uh, ended up, you know, even quitting because they, uh, cannot handle it anymore. And, and to your point as well, new, uh, bus operators, new transit employees coming in that are just learning this, they come at the most challenging time, because people are super sensitive and also maybe frustrated because the service is, sometimes it’s not showing up because, you know, the, the vehicle might be late. Uh, the, the trip got canceled with the shortages, uh, and then now they come on the bus upset at the driver. “Why are you late? Why are you…” And, and the drivers always have to take everything from the public, right? Like, for a lot of the administrative employees that don’t interact with the public, they don’t really have to, you know, take that bad side of, you know, customers when they’re upset and, you know, they take it out on the driver. Um, but this is just not, like, a, a, a, a workers’ issue, right? Like, uh, uh, mentioning it’s just not the bus operators. It’s, it’s also the service. It’s also the, the riders’ experience. Uh, uh, was any of that also assessed o- on your study or, you know, some of those, eh, uh, I don’t know, feedback or responses from, uh, the participating employees? Yeah. I mean, it, it, it’s come up a lot. Like, you know, a lot of transit agencies will have the policy of, you know, if your relief driver doesn’t show up, then you need to stay on the road, right? Like, you don’t get to just, you know, pack it up and, and go home, you know? It’s becomes your problem. And I don’t know if that’s fair.

It’s, from a customer perspective, yes, like, it, the continuity of service is really important, but you know, how can we look at our internal policies and procedures and build in more safeguards to h- better help s- employees? So, one of the things we found was, you know, there just needs to be a little bit more flexibility too with, um, with the ability to recover from incidents, for example. Um, so there might be, you know, a standard couple sessions following, you know, a collision incident or, uh, assault incidents. Um, there might be a couple, you know,

EAP-required counseling sessions, um, or there might be, you know, a standard, like, you can take off X number of days following this incident. Um, but…… you know, maybe each employee’s, their recovery is a little bit different, right? Um, maybe they need a couple more sessions, a couple more days, a couple more weeks to, before they feel comfortable to get back in the wheel.

And one of the other things we saw some transit agencies were doing were they were doing more to create that community and support structure. Um, so following COVID, you know, a lot of social events kind of went out the door. A lot of that social structure that did exist and had been built up over time kind of went away overnight, um, because we weren’t allowed to socialize. So reestablishing, you know, that feeling of connectedness amongst your employees, eh, especially your operations ones who are gonna be out in the field, you know, whenever they can have that friend at work and, or create that rapport with their supervisor, then they feel comfortable to going to that person whenever they are feeling stressed or burnt out or having a challenge at work, um, or at home too and it affects their work. Um, so it’s just really important. I have seen some agencies too through the report, whenever we were doing some of our research, you know, they’re setting up kind of, um, mentorship programs, especially for new operators that, you know, they can have this buddy that they can go to that’s, you know, been doing it for a while and can give them that advice and sort of share their strategies for, you know, managing challenging situations in the field. So you mentioned there a, a couple of different strategies that agencies have employed, uh, you know, to be able to help support their employees.

For those agencies that you saw in the study that maybe weren’t doing that, what were their barriers to implementation, so to speak? What was keeping them from being able to, you know, provide that support network?

I mean, the big thing is always funding, right? Like- Mm-hmm. … I think, um, it’s always a challenge to find the money to stand up some sort of support program to, uh, you know, they may have tried to do a mentorship program, but it was on a voluntary basis, and we found, you know, you really have to, if you’re going to say that you’re putting a program into place, you really do need to put some funds behind it. So if you’re gonna say, “Yeah, we’re gonna do a mentorship program,” then you need to pay employees for their time whenever they participate in, in such program. Um, you need to facilitate those sorts of connections, um, and I think

, you know, some agencies, they were starting to recognize that, you know, we need to have a dedicated person that can do this facilitation to, uh, work on mental health and well-being and kind of grow those sorts of programs, identify what the employee needs are, and work with the employees, work with union representatives, bring everybody to the table to decide what the solutions are. That’s one of the things I mentioned earlier was the trust piece, but, you know, how can, um, we rebuild that trust? And I think part of that is just working on solutions together and bringing everyone to the table, um, at the same time. We all have the same goal in mind at the end of the day. Like, we want a happier, healthier workforce, uh, we wanna retain our employees, we wanna attract new employees, um, and we wanna deliver a reliable and high-quality transit service. So everyone’s working towards the same goals, so once you frame the conversation around goal setting and, you know, the solution and the outcome, then it’s a little bit easier, I think, for everyone to come together and not feel like they’re parts of a different team.

I see. Eh, did you come across any agencies that may have dedicated some funding, uh, you know, maybe even an, a significant amount of funding towards a particular initiative that didn’t quite work out as they expected, and were there any takeaways?

Um, yes. I mean, I, th- one of the things we talk about in the report is the ability to measure and evaluate some of the initiatives and programs. A lot of the transit agencies we spoke to and surveyed, um, they have these programs in place, but whenever we asked, you know, “How do you measure them, their success? How do you evaluate them?” a lot of that wasn’t in place. So they were, uh, in very early stages kind of of understanding, um, the value that programs or enhanced EAPs, enhanced UAPs, um, you know, putting wellness programs into place. We really needed to, one of the things in our toolkit is actually how to create, like, a program evaluation framework and what that looks like, um, so we talk about the capability maturity matrix for program evaluation. Um, so it is important to, I guess, think about and always just be reevaluating the services and the offerings you have for your employees, um, and then also just talking to your employees, maybe surveying them, holding focus groups, identifying and replacing old programs with new programs, or modifying initiatives that you already have in place, that sort of thing.

I don’t know that that- So it sounds like you really need- … answered your question. Sorry. Oh, yeah. No, no. That was great. That was great. That was great. Um, let me just take a pause here. W- were there any agencies that y- you felt like were just hitting all the marks? They-… had a particular person that was dedicated, uh, to the program, uh, they were measuring the success of the program. You know, I’d like to give some shout-out where a shout-out is deserved- . … and it, you know, if there’s one agency that really sticks out in your mind, uh, you know, feel free to share that story with us.

Sure. Um, so I’ll bring up a couple. Um, um, sorry, give me one s- second. So I’ll bring up a couple, I think, that are doing a lot of really good things. Um, so

VTA, which is Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority un- unfortunately they had a, a major incident where they had an active shooter, um, in one of their operating divisions come in, and it really, really impacted their employees, um, mental health. There were many employees who were quite traumatized and had a hard time coming back to work. Some of them did not come back to work. Um, so in response to that, the agency did a lot to, um, support their employees so that they could return to work, so that they felt safe and supported. Um, so they did implement, um, a lot of different kinds of programs including, um, a mental health counselor that they brought in. It was available for their employees free of charge. Um, but then they also implemented, you know, more training and mentorship, um, programs. They, um, worked really hard to improve their AAP. They changed some of their, um, leave policies to be a little bit more flexible, so, and they continue to kind of be one of the, um, standout transit agencies in terms of, you know, supporting frontline worker mental health and wellness. Um, but there are some other transit agencies too that are making a lot of really good strides and putting some innovative, um, things into practice. So I’ll say TriMet was a really interesting one. Um, they had identified a need, uh, to keep, um, nursing parents in the workforce. Uh, it was very challenging for, um, a transit operator who was nursing and lactating and needed to pump to be able to accommodate that whenever they’re driving a shift.

So one of the things that they did was they worked with their paratransit, um, department and they took one of their paratransit vans and they turned it into, like, a mobile lactation center. And so they would identify when there would be a parent returning to work that would be nursing and, and l- uh, pumping, and they would make sure that they would deploy this van at appropriate times so that they would have a break space, um, to pump while they were doing their shift. So they were accomo- they identified what the problem was, a need, and they worked towards a solution. Uh, and they did that in combination with, like, their union too very closely, um, to figure out, you know, what the right solution was and, and that’s helped to retain some of their, um, new parents and keep them in the workforce, ’cause it is costly to, to hire and replace those folks. Um, and then the other one I might bring up is, um, IndyGo in Indianapolis. So they partnered with, um, a local hospital health service provider to create, like, onsite health clinics so, um, operators had access to healthcare services on site. Um, and then they also implemented, um, kind of this creative marketing campaign, um, where they were able to, like, it- they called it Toilet Talk

. But it would advertise basically their, um, increase awareness basically of their Employee Assistance Program resources, uh, with like these wellness topics and they would post these, um, little flyers that they called Toilet Talk that had kind of brief information about, um, upcoming, uh, wellness kind of like lunch and learns, um, and they would post that in, like, the operator’s bathrooms and, and break spaces and things like that. So it was just a fun way, creative way, to, like, share information that was a little eye-catching and, and kind of got the job done, right? So those are just some of the things- Wow. … folks did. I, I really love, you know, all those examples, uh, for, for different reasons, of, of course. I think, uh, y- you know, folks in the transit industry even for a, a couple years know about what happened at, at

VTA and it’s, you know, such a horrible and tragic event. Uh, but I’m, I’m glad to hear that, you know, on the other side of that they’ve put those programs in place, uh, to be able to support those workers who are, are- have to be clearly traumatized from such a horrific event. Um, you know, on, on, on the other example, uh, with the mobile nursing station, how creative. Um, I mean, as, uh, someone who has a, a nursing child, uh, you know, Christian I know just getting out of that stage with, with his child, how difficult that is on the mother to be able to find that time in a busy schedule to be able to, to nurse. So, uh, you know, really love that all around. Uh, and then of course the Toilet

Talk, that’s who- what a, what a great name that is . I don’t know who named that, but, uh, that’s, that’s terrific.Uh, so for the, y- you know, maybe some people that are listening to, uh, the podcast, uh, maybe they’re skeptical, right?

Maybe they are a leader of a transit organization and they’re like, “Yeah, but…” Y- you’re, you’re talking about, you know, agencies in Southern California, they’re large or, uh, you know, maybe they, they definitely have more resources, they’re an authority. Eh, how do you get the, the smaller agencies, you know, the, the 20, 30, 50-bus agencies to care about something like this? Well, I think frontline employees themselves can always be self-advocate. We actually have, um, in the toolkit, a few items for the employee themselves on how can they advocate for themselves, how can they make the case for creating a program. So, I think unions, um, frontline workers, you know, direct supervisors, people who are a little bit, you know, less removed from, from direct operations, they’re probably the people with the strongest voice and it’s on them to identify the solutions that work for, uh, their employees. Um,

I would say that from a leadership standpoint, it really does come from top down. When you make a stance that this is a, a value that you say mental health is important, then that really kind of trickles down throughout the agency, so making that investment in your employees really does pay off because you can retain them longer, you can get better work out of them if they’re happier in their jobs, there’s less absenteeism. Um, you know, we really have to examine what does it cost to not do these things, right?

Yeah, 100%. A- and it, it does end up costing a lot, uh, in, in various ways, uh- Mm-hmm. … you know, whether that be with a, an incident like the one that we, uh, we watched at VTA or it, it could just be that you’re not able to, uh, retain your operators or retain your frontline workers to be able have a, to a staff to, you know, meet those service demands. Mm-hmm. Um, no, so yeah. Really, really loved what, you know, that, that message, uh, in particular and w- you know, working with, uh, the union and, and HR.

Yeah, well, I wanna add something to it because, you know, talking about the, the cost, right? And is the quality of the customer service and this is just my observation and, you know, you will tell me if you, if you agree or not based on, on your research, but I do believe that a lot of bus operators suffer a little bit of that, you know, PTSD, um, especially after being abused or, or going through, uh, you know, negative experience interacting with the public. Um, and then

I’ve… And again, this is my perception and, you know, I’ve really appreciated, uh, bus operators across the country and, you know, all those transit workers that are delivering the work, um, but I see that some of them, because of those experiences, um, they rather not to interact as much to the public, they tend, they tend to become a little bit like, um, you know, d- tougher, you know? They, they tend to just be quiet, not, not have as much interaction because they had some bad interactions in the past and now they’re not as happy, they’re not as friendly to people because, you know, there, there’s bus operators that have just said good morning to a person and then they got stabbed, right?

So, they know that sometimes the public and some of the folks they’re interacting with, uh, they’re hard to deal with and that, that, I think, is part of that, uh, trade of… Um, would you say that you find some of that in your research or y- you know, would you agree?

Yeah, I mean, avoidance is definitely a way to cope, um, and to guard yourself and that isn’t necessarily, like, what we want. Um, so some of the things we talked about, um, that came up during the research was, you know, just more training for frontline operators so that they feel like they’re equipped with the tools and the skills to deal with challenging situations. Um, and then an additional support of that, like, some transit agencies have implemented, you know, crisis response teams, which, um, are kind of a dedicated team that is special and more experienced maybe in, in certain types of situations like collisions, um, um, other maybe violent situations and things like that where they’re deployed not necessarily to, uh, deal with the situation at hand, but to support the employee that, um, that was impacted. And it doesn’t just stop in the field. I think it’s important to recognize that, you know, that employee’s gonna go home and they might have some lingering trauma, they might have, you know, some emotions to, to work through, and they need that ongoing support. So, it needs to extend beyond just the incident itself, but, um, just offering more support for people beyond the incident, um, following the incident, and just being, you know, empathetic as…… as a manager and a leader, and recognizing that it is challenging. It’s challenging work and it’s, it’s hard work, and, um, giving them that space to kind of heal and, and be able to return to work and be successful in their jobs, and give them the right tools to be successful in their jobs. And, and the fact that they are really delivering the work out there.

I mean, we- Yeah. … we cannot do, uh, we cannot deliver transit without our frontline employees. They, they’re paramount. And, and that’s really taking care of ’em not just for, like you said, like a, a, the, the, a incident at hand, like responding to it, but the following days. Like sometimes they have a bad interaction with a person that is a daily rider, and that creates an ongoing stress for somebody that has to deal with that person. So I think that ongoing support is, is critical as well. I wanted to ask you, uh, something, uh, slightly unrelated but related, uh, which is the transition to new propulsion systems, uh, and as, uh, is affecting frontline employees, uh, particularly, uh, you know, mechanics but, and also bus operators. Uh, they, you know, they have to, uh, learn these new systems and, and how to operate ’em. Uh, do you see any, uh, of that shift affecting, uh, bus operators, frontline workers from the, you know, mental health, uh, perspective? Absolutely. I mean, it’s a huge stressor. Um, new technology, new risks, um, for the operator, so making sure that they understand what to do in certain situations, how to handle the equipment, how the equipment works, even, uh, to the point of maybe understanding a little bit more than they need to as, as, as operators. Um, but that education, it just makes them feel like they’re valued and that we’re investing in, in them, in educating them about the new technology and the new equipment and that sort of thing. When it comes to mechanics, that’s where I think the real… Uh, it’s definitely an emerging issue I’ve seen. Um, mechanic shortages, being able to find qualified, um, folks, uh, dealing with some of this, like, new technology, new fuel technology. It’s… It’s complex, it’s very technical, it’s high voltage in some cases and, you know, very dangerous. Um, so it’s important that we support those employees and also create kind of pipelines for education and, um, other workforce partnerships so that there is sufficient employees to be able to, um, fill those roles. And, but also we don’t wanna leave our existing mechanics and operators behind, so how can we uplift them and provide them with, like, more training and support in order to fulfill these roles and these… work on this new technology, right?

Um, the one thing I’d say from a service planning, scheduling perspective, we really need to do better, um, around kind of how we estimate our fleet needs and, um, understand our spare ratios. I actually also worked on, um, some research with APTA on the spare ratio, um, rules that FTA has. So for everyone, anyone who, who isn’t aware, it’s, you know, FTA does say you have to have no more than 20% spares on hand, and it’s based on your peak vehicle requirement. Well, service has changed since FTA put that rule into place in, in the 90s. Peak vehicle pullout isn’t necessarily a good proxy to understand your fleet needs anymore, because we operate a lot of midday service now, we operate a lot of weekend service, overnight service, and that really impacts, uh, mechanic and maintenance abilities to work on vehicles during the day when we would traditionally have mechanics working on vehicles.

Um, so now we’re seeing, like, second and third shift mechanics, and those are really hard to, um, to recruit and retain. Um, so I think from a, you know, planning perspective, we should be thinking about, you know, equipment and when it’s in the yard and how long it’s in the yard so that maintenance can be performed at a reasonable shift time, I guess.

And on, you know, the operator side of things, how can we adjust policies around layover and where we have layover and, um, how we block and cut trips to make, you know, that operator quality of life a little bit better? So those things all play into mental health and wellness and resiliency. If we don’t feel like, you know, we have enough time to recoup and relax and, and do the things that we need to do in our personal lives, that makes us resent work. Wow, that, yeah, that’s, uh, those are really i- impactful statements that you made there. Just, uh, absorbing them all because, uh, it… I, I think the way that you’re thinking about it is very comprehensive and

I, I certainly appreciate it. I, I think that our listeners are going to, uh, appreciate, you know, he- hearing the, uh, the practical side of what happens when you don’t give a, a long enough layover, right? It, that, it ends up wearing people down. For sure. It, it breaks them down over time and, um, you know, we, none of us make the best decisions whenever we’re stressed and tired.

It’s just not possible. You- Yeah, it’s especially true in the context, Levi, of we have these people who are just doing this for the first time, they’re new to transit operations, so we need to be, you know-… cognizant of that and not drive them away

. Right, and that could be easy to do. Uh, I mean, i- imagine stepping into a bus for the first time and, you know, you’re, you’re just out of your, your training class, uh, and that’s only a, a few weeks long, and, and you’re, like you said earlier, you’re having to do all these roles now, um, a- and probably help people with the system that you don’t really know that well.

Uh, I would say that’s, you know, the case in, uh, for most operators, um, y- you know, not to hang too much on the, on the operator side. I know there are a lot more in that universe of front line employees, but you know, as Christian said earlier, that is the, that’s the majority. But, um, it, it’s a, it’s a very taxing role, uh, I would say as a bus operator or train operator, so you know, thank you for, to those who, you know, continue to fill those roles and make th- the country move. This is, you know, it’s what we need, and I, I think we need to, uh, take a serious look at, um, at how we, we treat our employees.

Um, so just to kind of wrap up here, um, do you have any advice for someone starting in transit today? I- if they were… You know, this could be more general advice. Maybe they’re in a planning role, maybe they’re in a dispatching role, operator, uh, you know, working at a, a booth. What would you say is some general advice that could apply to someone starting today?

I would say, you really should work on growing your network. Um, finding people… We’re all really supportive, I think, in transit of each other, I feel like

. That’s, uh, especially true in, in, in the transit industry. So finding those people, connecting with them, learning from them, seeking advice from them, and also making yourself available to others. Um, that’s really the whole mentorship idea, is, is it’s how you are gonna be successful and grow in your career and, and learn, you know? And just never stop learning.

Yeah, that’s great. Is there any particular moment, uh, that you had during, you know, this TCRP research where y- you, you came away thinking differently? Uh, y- you know, I’m not sure if there’s a, uh, you know, a very fine time where you could say, like, “Oh,

I, uh, you know, that changed me,” but if you have it, I’d, I’d love to know what that is. Yes. Um, so I was actually speaking at, uh, the Transit Workforce Center’s conference last November, and I was on a panel with a couple other folks. It wa- the topic was mental health and wellness, and I was presenting this research.

But, um, we had invited someone who was there the day of the VTA, um, incident, and he shared his experience, and he shared kind of the fallout from that, and that was… I think that impacted everyone in that room. There were many tears that day in that session, and

I will not forget this tattooed, bandana, tough-looking guy just talking about his feelings, and the trauma, and the impact it had on him and his colleagues, and it’s just, it’s very serious.

And everyone should take mental health really seriously and kind of, you know, ask your friend if they’re doing okay today,

’cause you don’t really know what people are going through. And I think that was incredibly impactful for me and for everyone else in that room.

Wow. Yeah, what a, what a great answer. I, I really love that. Um, so just to, uh, finally wrap up here, I, I have a few key takeaways that I’ve been noting while were speaking. Uh, you let me know if you disagree with any of these or if you agree with all of them. Um, but the, the one that sticks out to me that you mentioned first was, uh, you didn’t quite say it this way, letting your curiosity drive you. It sounds like you’re a very curious person. You, you want to keep growing and but learning, and you know, if you’re in the industry, there are plenty of opportunities to be able to do that.

Uh, front line workers do not necessarily feel supported. That could be by their colleagues or by the management at their transit organization. Uh, the social connectivity part of, you know, being around your colleagues is really important. We, we need to make sure that people feel supported in that way, where you can converse, you can have a rapport with other people. Uh, if you’re a transit agency and, you know, maybe you, you’re an executive at that agency, um, if you’re going to start one of these mental health programs, you need to have some resources behind it. It, it can’t just be some, you, you know, press release that you’re throwing out there and saying, “Hey, we’re starting this.” Uh, y- you, you have to have a plan. You need to be able to measure it, and you need to be able to iterate. Um, and then finally, what I wrote down is being an advocate for yourself. Uh, if you’re one of those fr- front line employees and you’re listening to this, uh, this TCRP-245 has the, a toolkit for you to be able to advocate for yourself and also give you some tips on how to work with the union and HR, uh, those other, you know, departments that are ancillary to operations, uh, that will help shape the organization and advance the, those front line-centric policies.

Are those good takeaways? Do you have any others? Absolutely. I think you’ve, m- hit the nail on the head . Oh, great. I passed the test. I just think the more we talk about it, the more it becomes, um, second nature and acceptable, so you wanna be kind of the change you wanna see out there in the world. Absolutely. Well, Sandy, thank you so much for joining us today. Where can our listeners go to learn more about the TCRP-245 report, uh, Foursquare ITP, or you know, even check out your Mass Transit Magazine article or your profile for the 40 Under 40?

Well, people can always contact me on LinkedIn, Sandy Brennan, um, but you can also check out and get my email from the website. Check out our website. It’s foursquareitp.com. Um, and yeah, I encourage everyone to check out TCRP Report 245. It’s Mental Health, Wellness, and Resilience of

Front Line Transit Workers. You can find that on, uh, TRB’s website, the National Academy of Sciences. Excellent. Again, thank you so much, Sandy, for joining us, and thank you to our audience for listening. We will be back next Monday with another episode. Thank you. Thank you.