You know, when you find a defect, once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern. Stop Requested.
This is Stop Requested. by ETA. I’m Christian. And I’m Levi. These are real conversations with the innovators, operators, and advocates driving improvements in public transportation. Today, we’re joined by Paul Germo, a. transit consultant with more than 15 years of experience in bus manufacturing, inspections, and procurement.
Paul calls himself the chief failure analyst, helping transit agencies identify problems before they become costly mistakes. We’ discuss what really happens on the bus manufacturing, floor, why agencies need to involve operations and maintenance staff in purchasing decisions, and how better communication and quality control can prevent delays and improve reliability.
Here’s our conversation with Paul Germo. Welcome back to Stop Requested. Today, we have another exciting episode for you. We’re joined by Paul Germo, who’s a transit consultant, and he has a breadth of experience in manufacturing.
Paul, how are you today? I am doing fantastic, Levi. Thank you so much. Appreciate you having me on the podcast.
Absolutely. It’s really our pleasure. And I think our audience is also going to just dive right into this conversation.
I think that there’s a lot of focus, at least on our podcast, about planning because Christian and I come from the planning world.
But equally, if not more important, is the manufacturing component of buses and vehicles. So
I want to get your take on this and share some of your insights with our audience. So for those who may not be familiar with you, can you introduce yourself and just describe to us what you do? Okay. Yeah. So my name, as you said, is Paul Germo. I have been in the transit industry for 16-ish years. I started out initially doing bus inspections, basically at transit plants, manufacturing facilities.
The first place I worked was on New Flyer in St. Cloud, Minnesota. Worked there for several years. And that’s where I really built up my relationships and my understanding of the transit industry. And that is what got me into the position
I’m at today, where right now I work with transit agencies across North America, from Alaska to Florida.
And I call myself the chief failure analyst, because I look at systems and I figure out where they fail. And I also look at bus manufacturing and find out where they are failing. And I also help people who feel like they’re failing get to their next level. So what is it in particular that has drawn you to that sort of failure analyst role where you try to see where things are falling apart or drifting and you kind of put the pieces back together?
Where does that come from? Well, honestly, I wrote a book called A Failure’s Guide to Success because I went through a rough period in life where I felt like
I had failed badly. And at that point, that’s what transitioned me into public transit.
And when I got into that period, I thought I need to actually write a guide for myself on how to ensure that I am not failing. And I started looking at the root cause of failure, what causes a system to break down, where thinking can actually be the biggest problem in getting a project or a person to go forward to where they need to go. So that’s kind of where the root of it all was because I felt like
I had really failed in a period of my life and I didn’t want to repeat it. So Paul, your career has spanned a number of different organizations. And as I mentioned in the intro, manufacturing consulting has been a big part of that. You worked at the Transit
Resource Center. And you’ve also talked about this failure analyst kind of niche that you’ve carved out. How does that apply to public transportation? How have you been able to kind of work that into your role now as a consultant? Right. Yeah, no, that’s a great question.
And I really, I’ll delve in a little bit here. On the manufacturing side, they focus on numbers, you know, and focusing on numbers, getting their signature because they have to because, you know, it’s a for-profit business. On the manufacturing side, they have to focus on numbers, but they do that sometimes to the exclusion of quality. And so you start seeing failures happen because people are chasing numbers. And when you chase numbers, you kind of burn out your people, you kind of burn out your quality. And if you focus on quality and people, you get your numbers. So that’s what I’ve seen in the manufacturing side.
In the transit agency side, a lot of times what I have seen is there are rewards for not chasing numbers, you know.
So it’s kind of the inverse because public transit is not necessarily for profit. And so they have a totally different way of looking at production, at numbers, and they may not understand all the intricacies that go into building a bus or bus procurement.
And that’s basically what my focus has been, has been on the bus purchasing and manufacturing and the quality side. You know, having worked at an agency,
Paul, uh, Christian and I, we, we know when the buses are received, right? Mm-hmm. You, you don’t necessarily place the order, but we’re on the receiving end, and, “Hey, this is the bus, and it has this capacity, and it has, uh, you know, this length.” And then you get to kind of m- move the
Lego pieces around a bit and see, like, oh, is it gonna fit on this road? Can it make that turn? Is there more that the transit agency can do to ensure that there’s alignment across the entire organization, so y- you know, when you, when we as planners would get that bus, we would know that well in advance? Uh, yeah.
So there, there is a lot that can be done. Number one, um, or a key, I’m not necessarily sure it’s number one, but a, a strong key is open communication between departments because
I have had transit agencies call me, a, a member who’s involved in the, from the maintenance side, and they’ll call me up, and they’ll ask me if I’ve heard from their procurement department yet because they can’t get communication from their procurement department. So they’ll call me, and they’ll ask me, or if I’ve had communication with them. They know that I’ll have more communication as an external guy than they will internally, and I think that’s where everything kinda hinges on is having teams that actually communicate with each other, and they don’t silo themselves off. ‘Cause a lot of times, you know, the guys working on the buses are, they’ve got their turrets pointed at, you know, the guys in quality, and quality has them pointed at the administration and the planners, and there’s a lot of, um, not cross-pollination happening, which I think is really key. So one of the key factors is open communication and make sure that everybody’s on the same page and not just worried about their own little world.
Right. It’s easy to fall into those fiefdoms. I’m in planning- Oh, yeah … I’m in maintenance, I’m in operations, and not see the bigger picture. It… You mentioned teams there, which I, I think is a, a, you know, in- interesting concept in terms of a, a bus build.
Uh, w- what are you envisioning there? Like, I can see, well, let’s grab one person from here, from operations, let’s say, from maintenance, from planning, and kinda put them together and say, “What do we need?” I- is that what you think about when you s- when you think of teams and trying to get all the pieces in place to, to have a, a, a bus manufactured? Yeah, absolutely, and I think, I think a key, um, factor is you build not from the top down because if you do that, you’re making mistakes.
where a lot of times, um, if you’re in an ivory tower, and you’re making decisions, but you don’t have a real understanding of what’s going on on the floor, or what’s going on in the routes, or you don’t understand the day-to-day of operating the actual buses or the garage or the quality team, then you’re making decisions, kind of in a vacuum, and you don’t wanna be the smartest guy in the room, you know? And that’s, that’s a mistake that I’ve seen over and over again is you’ll have someone who’s so far removed from the reality of operations that they can make decisions that make no sense.
And sometimes it’s because someone sells them something that, you know, they don’t really know if it’s gonna work for their agency or not. So if you have teams and you have representation and you allow them to advise you, you do what in the startup world is called customer discovery.
You should do that internally. You should discover, interview, get to know what’s going on in the real world, and you do that, and you don’t go in with preconceived ideas, but you be open to how the operation should go, what we really need from a bus.
And if you do, as you’re purchasing a bus and building out a bus, you know, because there’s the basics. Everybody needs wheels.
You need a chassis, you need a body, you need seats, you need grab rails, you know? And, but then there’s all the stuff that can be added on. Some of it is very useful, some of it is not useful and can actually make life more difficult for the operator. And I’m sure we’re going to get into some of that later on in the discussion, but o- one thing that you said there, uh, it triggered an article, uh, that I recently read, I think it was in al.com from Alabama, about this, this mayor, uh, from Mobile,
Alabama, who had this idea that all of their buses need to be replaced with trolley buses. And- Oh, man … it’s the rubber, rubber tire trolley bus kind, not the, you know, catenary wire or, uh, a more traditional trolley.
But the, the takeaway for me was that, well, this guy is really excited about public transit, and you don’t often see politicians that are very excited about transit.
Uh, so I could see that that would be a good thing, but he did exactly what you suggested not to do, which is kind of have this top-down vision and say, “Hey, this is what we’re going to implement,” um, without regards to, you know, the, the service, uh, environment, the operating environment.
I, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that. I know you haven’t read the article obviously, but I’m sure you’ve seen that in your own experience. Yeah. Yes, I have. I have indeed.
And you know, um, I am just, as you were describing that, I was just kinda picturing the disasters happening. I’ve had conversations with, um-
Directors of maintenance who say, we’ll talk about electrification here, ’cause when electric buses first came out, it was, there was a lot of pushback, of course, and a lot of it was, um, mandated upon them, and they were not ready, and the- and they did not have, um, everything in place that they needed. So
I, I’ve had clients purchase, um, buses because they were told, “This is what we’re buying,” but the infrastructure wasn’t set up. I see them a year or two later, and I say, “So how are those buses working?”
And their answer to me was, “Oh, we don’t even have charging systems yet, so those buses are just sitting in, in the yard.” You know, so that was, that’s an instance where someone somewhere said, “This is what we’re doing,” but they don’t even realize there are a lot of ramifications and a lot of chess pieces that have to be moved around. And I think one of you used the word Lego pieces earlier.
You know, you might have a box of Lego pieces here, but you need all the pieces to make the finished product. And, you know, so that’s, that’s what, what I’m thinking of when I say top-down. Um, and also, honestly, you know, I worked in bus inspections for, you know, nearly a decade in plants, um, so I got to see how the day-to-day, um, operations happened, um, internally, and I also got to see the life of a bus inspector. So when I worked for Transit Resource
Center, I hired and trained bus inspectors throughout North America, and I understood what they went through on a day-to-day basis. So I was able to truly support them, and
I was able to step in when needed, and I could say, you know, this is either a great thing or it’s a bad thing, because I knew what was going on, and I could actually, um, step in when a client was pushing for scope that wasn’t there.
I could, um, I, I knew exactly what was going on in the manufacturing facility ’cause I had lived it for close to a decade. So I was able to, to do that and to bring, um, a, a lot of value for, uh, the people who were actually on the front line.
If you’re so separated from that, then you make top-down decisions that don’t necessarily make sense. Yeah, it, it’s always challenging for agencies, and, and the electric vehicles, uh, example is a, is a really good one. You know, the, there’s fads that come into our industry, and, and innovations, and, and it’s great.
I mean, there’s all kinds, uh, uh, of things and innovations that are happening in transit, but, you know, the, the CEO and, and those executive teams have to make the decisions on what they need to jump on, and, and making sure that when they’re bringing a, a, an innovation, a technology, particularly for buses, if, if they’re making any decisions about their fleets, uh, that they’re involving the right people in the conversation.
Because, you know, a, a lot of, um, CEOs, they just don’t have that expertise on vehicle maintenance, you know, fleet, you know, oversight, and bringing the folks also that will be impacted, uh, in the conversation i- is paramount.
Because, you know, like you said, if you don’t have all the Lego pieces, you’re not gonna be able to have the final product. And, and there’s agencies that only have some of the pieces. Uh, but also from the OEMs and the options that are in the market for certain technologies that are just emerging, they’re not even offering all the pieces in the manufacturing side. So it’s like, well, this is what we have. You’re gonna have to look for assistance with all those other pieces. So that, that’s always the challenge. Uh, Paul, I wanted to ask you, you know, you spent nearly eight years as a federal transit manufacturing consultant.
It represented some of your clients, pretty much providing that eyes and ears in the process, and that’s such a critical role, right? Because y- you know, I think about when I was working at a transit agency, I mean, we, we come to the transit agency, and, you know, everybody’s doing their role there, but we don’t get to necessarily, uh, travel to the, the OEM and actually see the entire process. Yes, some, uh, folks within the transit agency, they get that opportunity to go there. Uh, funny enough, sometimes they’re not even involved in the process, but they are the ones that get to go.
Yeah. Um, you know, w- what does that role, uh, actually involve? A- and why should agencies consider having, uh, a manufacturing consultant in the process?
Well, you kind of hit on a couple of keys right there. Y- like you said, there’ll be people who are involved on your end, planning and so forth, who have no idea what’s going on at the manufacturing facility.
And then you have people who go to the manufacturing facility who aren’t even involved in the procurement or, you know, who don’t actually operate the buses. It’s one of the benefits of hiring a transit, um, manufacturing consultant who’s actually been in the field is he knows what’s going on. He knows that there are sometimes games that are played. He knows that he knows the players.
He knows what has happened, or I should say he or she, because I’ve had some phenomenal female, um, individuals working for me who are, you know, some of the best in the industry.
So it’s, it’s not always a he. It can be a he or a she. So the, the consultant, if they’re actually experienced, um, they know what the day-to-day is.
They know what the processes should be, and they als- also understand that sometimes a project goes sideways.
You know, in, in theory In the perfect world, the manufacturer gives you a schedule, and it, it goes to their whole procurement department, it goes to everybody, and they say, “The bus is gonna enter on this day, and then it’s gonna exit on this day, and it’ll be inspected on this day, and then shipped.”
That’s best case scenario. That’s a projected timeline, and rarely does it go to plan, because there’s always possibilities for complications to happen, and they do happen.
And if you have a consultant who has relationships with the manufacturer, they know him, they trust him, they like him, and the transit agency knows, likes, and trusts him, that is really a key.
And I was able to become that person between transit agencies, bus manufacturers.
I’d have one or the other call me and talk to me, and I had a guy from California, from a really big, um, Northern California transit agency call me, and he was asking me questions because they were getting a procurement together, and he didn’t understand, um, why one a- manufacturer was doing this, and another one was doing that, and how do
I write my procurement so that, um, I’m heading in the right direction? And he…
You know, so I, I was able to give him insights because I knew. So it’s really a benefit to hire someone who understands the field, and has actually been in the field, and understands the players. Today’s episode is brought to you by ETA.
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That’s, that’s paramount. And, and this is the, the thing that I came to learn about, uh, ordering buses, um, in, in the manufacturing process with the buses. Uh, you know, the, the, the, the ideal, um, um, manufacturing production environment will be that every agency orders exactly the same bus, is specced exactly the same.
That would help us speed up, you know, manufacturing and get everything ready. The reality is different communities have different needs. Uh, they make different choices on how the bus needs to be specced for different reasons. Some are preferences, some are requirements, uh, some, uh, have to do with decisions already made in the past, so just lowering their inventory and, um, you know, trying to streamline their maintenance process by not having a lot of different, you know, parts and b- bits and pieces. So that makes it even more complicated, right? Because if you had, like, a standard vehicle, everybody’s ordering exactly the same, you could, like, you know, forecast, uh, production. You could do a lot of things to streamline the manufacturing process. When, when agencies get to pick so many things differently, that’s where it also gets complicated.
But also, it’s where they have to know w- what decisions to make and, and what, um, options to choose from, right? A- and that’s the thing where I think that sometimes there’s a disconnect because as a salesperson, well, I wanna sell you latest and greatest and maybe, you know, show you all the options that would, uh, I don’t know, give you all these different benefits. But the agency has to be able to discern between what’s really a need, and they… how to build their, um, roadmap, like, to add bells and whistles that would be ideal to have, but maybe it’s not the right moment.
So I wanted to know from your perspective sitting in, in this position, which I think is paramount. Again, agencies fail a lot to advance, uh, the way their vehicles look and the capabilities they have, um, but also, you know, to make the right decisions because they don’t have a full understanding and have somebody in their team that, that is bringing that expertise, uh, as you had, uh, for different agencies. But what do agencies often not see or understand about that, that, um, production environment with the vehicles being built?
Yeah. And, and that’s a great question. I mean, you said a couple things that kinda triggered a story in, in my mind.
So can I go down a little rabbit trail here? Of course. Okay. So, um, a- as you were speaking, it made me think about, um, two different stories. Number one, the American transit industry, North American, mostly American, is so different than any other throughout the world. The European, um, transit industry, they kinda are told what we’re going to offer you from the manufacturer. “The, these are the buses you get.
Take ’em.” You know, pretty much. I, I had the opportunity to work with the biggest transit door manufacturer in the world. They were trying to become Buy America compliant, and so we were working with them and trying to get them into the American transit agency and get them Buy America compliant and setting up a, a plant in, um- In the southeast of the country.
And so we, we worked with them very closely, and I had a connection with a transit authority.
I’ll just say who it was. It was Las Vegas. Um, I called them up and I said, “Hey, we have the CEO of this major door manufacturer coming to, uh, the US. They wanna meet with, uh, someone at a transit authority.” And, you know, my understanding was they were gonna find out what the pain points were in the American door, um, transit door manufacturing. So we– they set up a meeting with us.
We g- fly out to Las Vegas. We get in there, we’re meeting with their team, um, who I had a longstanding relationship with ’cause I had done several bus inspections for them, and they knew me well, and I knew them well. Um, so we, we, we get there, and we’re having this meeting, and the CEO of this door manufacturer, one of the biggest in the world, sits there and gives this incredibly boring pitch-
… to the, um, to the customer. They’re not asking, you know, “What are your pain points?” He’s not trying to do any customer discovery. He’s not trying to understand them. He’s telling them the history of our company, everything about the company, where we… You know, it’s all me, me, me, me, me, us, us, us, us, us. There was nothing about you, the customer.
So essentially, he was used to doing that in Europe because they do not have the consumer, um, society that we have. You know, we are a very consumer-based, um, society here’ in North America. They don’t necessarily have that.
They’re kinda told, “Here’s what we’re gonna do.” So that’s how he was marketing to, um, Las Vegas. And the gentleman who’ was their, their top guy, the director there, he tried asking a couple questions.
The CEO of this door manufacturer said, uh, “You can ask questions later.” Basically, what he said is, “You don’t matter. What matters is me, and I’m gonna tell you what to do.” So that, that is one of the issues. We don’t have that here. You did say, you know, if everything was you get this bus, we will make a bus, and you take what you get, that would be easier. But because we do have, um, a consumer-based society, and people do have different needs, and there are options, and we also have a very entrepreneurial world where there are people building new technologies every day. I have people reach out to me constantly on LinkedIn saying, “Hey, can you help me get whatever the technology is into the transit, the American transit industry?” They don’t unders- understand that it’s not an easy, um, industry to penetrate. Uh, so anyway,
I… That led me to another story where I had a client who somehow decided the best thing they could do is buy c- a camera system made in Australia for their buses, and they kind of forced down the, um, the manufacturer’s throat. They’re like, “These are the only cameras we’re having no matter what.” It actually added months to the build, and months to their cost per an inspector, and delayed, um, the manufacturer’s timeline significantly because somebody somewhere, without understanding the ramifications, decided,
“Hey, this looks really cool. We’ll have these cameras made in Australia.” The- they’re on the other side of the world. Their customer support does not work on our timeline.
So they, you know, they didn’t have technicians in America, s- there was a lot of, um, pain and a lot of difficulty that could have been saved had they actually done a little bit of research and talked to somebody who actually knew that, “No, this would be a bad idea. I’ve seen these things go sideways,” which
I have, and other people in the industry like me would be able to advise them that you don’t wanna do that. And it, I believe they ended up scrapping the cameras after a year because there was no, no way to get support. So, um, those are the things that a manufacturing. consultant, someone who has been in the field, someone who has relationships throughout the industry, can really, um, help you avoid.
And that was all because someone thought it’ looked cool. Uh, you know, that, that’s a real problem because that sets the whole project behind schedule, and- Ugh … that means that you’re not putting out those, those buses or those vehicles in a, in a timely fashion when you might need them, right? Your, your- Yeah … operations or maintenance folks are, are probably y- you know, screaming for buses, and here’ you are, or at least one person, you know, that’s, uh, kinda making the decision that’s holding everything up. So it’s, it is really important, to have that subject matter expert, uh, uh, you know, on, on board, um, to be able to assist.
Right. Uh, when do you see that those types of, uh, decisions start to derail a project? In other words, are there any warning signs for, uh, transit agencies, uh, f- you know, that maybe they can, uh, be tipped off a bit to know what to look for and when so things don’t start to go awry?
In a perfect world, um, yes. But, but the, the thing is, a bus has thousands and thousands of parts-
Mm … um, and dozens of vendors. So any one of those, um, vendors Can suddenly have shortages. And, a- and it was really intensified after COVID and hasn’t really, um, been fully corrected since. A- and a lot of it is there are just parts shortages. There were, um, shortages with American seating. They were really struggling to put seats out for, um, for manufacturers.
And so transit agencies throughout North America were struggling to get buses completed and actually on the road.
And so New Flyer and Gillig went in there, and they purchased American Seating. They had to correct it. They actually had their own teams in there prior to purchasing it. Um, they had teams from both manufacturers in there fixing their processes because… A- I don’t know why, why it happened because American Seating was a very longstanding company, and I don’t know what, um, derailed it, but somehow it derailed. I think it had to do with, you know, the, the, um, global parts shortages that happened, and then they couldn’t catch up.
And so, you know, they ended up getting bought out, and they’re retooling, and I think they’re definitely improved as far as, um, you know, timeliness. And you, you can’t predict that. You just don’t know.
But somebody could have said, “Hey, these are the seats we’re thinking of. Do you know how are they coming out right now?” Or, or it could be a window company. Sometimes window companies are struggling or, or they had parts shortages.
And the, you know, the procurement process is many months long.
So when, when a procurement department is writing a spec, everything might be there, but by the time production happens, shortages can happen.
So I guess the, the answer to that is, yes, there are things you can do. You can find out, you know, while we’re building this spec, is everything available?
Or, you know, just be, be ready for the fact that it might change between now and when you actually go into production. And I’ve actually seen, um, during production where all of a sudden a manufacturer is no longer supporting it. Halfway through a build, they’re no longer supporting a product that’s on there, and then they have to, you know, the manufacturer and, and the, uh, the transit agency have to rethink, “Okay, what’s our next best solution to, to support this because these people suddenly went out of business or whatever it is?”
So there is, you know, there is no solid way to 100%, um, make it bulletproof.
I see. Yeah, and it sounds like you really have to be adaptable and, uh, figure things out on the fly when it does go sideways like that. Um- Yes
… y- you know, in, in your work, uh, on the manufacturing floor, was there, is there something that, that you always had to kind of keep in mind, uh, when you’re doing these inspections? Is there, uh…
You know, I’m, I’m looking for, like, something that, uh, the agency can think about in advance when they’re doing these bus builds because on the manufacturing side, it’s, it- it’s difficult to see, or there are usually problems with that, that particular build with this configuration.
Uh, a- anything that you have that comes to mind there? Yeah. Number one, I always, um, would tell my clients the number one thing you have to understand, you know, when purchasing a bus is these buses are built by humans. They’re not built by robots, so there will be some variance.
And, you know, ’cause a human can… And, and that’s one of the keys for having a bus inspector, and I think that’s one of the best things the FTA has mandated is bus inspections because you, as an inspector, you, you get to see what’s going on on the production floor. And someone may be tightening a bolt, and someone else comes up and asks them a question, and they forget that they didn’t finish tightening that bolt or mounting that, um, that DVR or whatever it might be. And they might then go on, answer the person’s question or, you know, get taken away somewhere else and then come back and forget they hadn’t done that, and then there’s a missing screw or… You know, because they’re built by humans. That’s the main thing to understand is humans are human.
And humans, you know, they have lives outside of work, and they get hungry, and they have breaks, and they have people come up and interrupt them.
So there will always be defects in the process. So you have to realize that.
And then you, if you have a really good inspector, he’ll find 90% of, of the missed items, and he may not, or she may not. Um, but there are hundreds of people who will see a bus from the time it enters the production line till the time it’s shipped, and but you have to realize every one of them is a human, and humans are not infallible.
So that- that’s one of the biggest realizations that I had when I first got into the industry is, wow, each one of these is, uh, not exactly the same as the other. I mean, they are so close, like probably- 98% identical, but there’s always that chance where there’s gonna be a little bit of deviation, but that’s because they’re built by humans.
It- this may, you know, show some of my ignorance here, but i- in my mind, a lot of these factories are automated. I’m, I’m taking it that that’s not the case. Exactly. Very few of them are.
Okay. Yeah. Like very, very few. Um, BYD does have some robotic, um, welding that happens.
Um, there have been robotic paint booths in some manufacturers. But overall, they have human beings doing everything, like building the chassis, putting all the components on, drilling the holes in the chassis.
You know, so it, it is basically a hand-built vehicle. If you’re buying an, um, like a Ford chassis or a Chevy chassis or, you know, Chrysler or Mercedes, whatever, if you’re buying one of those and then converting it, the, the Chevy, the Ford, the, you know, those big manufacturers, that’s mostly, um, robotic. But then once you d- are converting it, that’s done by hand. Having conversations with some of those agencies overseas, you know, I’ve,
I’ve had some insights, uh, very similar to what you said. They also get, uh, a wider variety of vehicles. they can choose from when they’re purchasing. But yes, they, they get it more standardized.
And, you know, one, one of the conversations that I had with, um, some of the executives of Proterra before, uh, they went out, uh, some of those executives came from Tesla actually, and then they, you know, their minds, like the building buses for the American, uh, industry would, would be most more standardized, where they could just gain efficiencies on, on standardization.
But like they’re learning, you know, uh, all the different agencies, they inspect their, their buses very differently. And that’s also the challenge for, uh, automating, um, manufacturing and production. You cannot have robotics and like put in place automation for specs that are only used for a few agencies. And then like, because there’s so many different variations, you will have so, uh, to have different approaches for automating all those variations. It just becomes too expensive and unmanageable.
Uh, so, so, you know, because the vehicles in America, they’re very, uh, manual the way they’re built and put together, they have to go through these inspections to make sure, you know, humans build it, they could make mistakes, uh, a- and these things are caught. But in your experience, when you go through those inspections, like what makes a vehicle truly ready for service, uh, beyond meeting the, the written specs? Like, okay, it has four, you know, whatever amount of wheels.
Yes, check. It has the windows, check. Like, what, what at your, you know, from your experience makes a vehicle ready for service? Man, that is such a great question.
And, and it depends on the type of vehicle you’re inspecting, of course. ‘Cause if you’re in Livonia, um, Michigan, and you’re inspecting at, um, Mobility Trans, and they have Ford Transit vans that just, you know, you’re basically putting seats and cameras in a preexisting chassis and stuff, that’s a different thing. You’re not inspecting everything. You’re inspecting seats. You’re inspecting whatever they, um, whatever they installed as they were, um, converting it. Whereas if you’re at a, let’s say, well, I won’t say Proterra because you can’t inspect there anymore, but let’s say a New Flyer or an MCI or a, a Prevost, if you’re inspecting there, um, you go through a process where you– when the bus is finished, l- like initially you’re inspecting it online. You’re making sure, you know, everything is being built to spec.
Um, and then you, you check, and if you see issues, you can bring it to the attention of, you know, someone online. But then once it’s finished, it’s presented to you as the inspector in a, in a specific department. Um,
New Flyer calls it CAD. Um, I– and different manufacturers have different terms for that department. Ba- basically, that’s where the bus inspectors spend a lot of their time, and a finished bus is presented to you, and you go in there, and you inspect every single square inch of the bus. You’re not just looking and checking boxes, because if you are, it’s not advantageous to anybody. It’s not good for the manufacturer, it’s not good for the client, and it’s not good for the, um, inspection company that you represent. So what you need to do? is you go in and you test everything. You make sure that all the functions operate, ’cause there might be a wire that’s not connected. There might be, um, a defective part. You’re checking the windshield wipers. You’re checking the lights. You’re m- checking, um, you know, you’re kneeling the bus. You’re raising the bus. You’re putting the ramp out. And you are– y- you’re doing all the functions of the bus. You take it out on a road test with a
QA representative from the manufacturer. And on that road test, you’re checking brakes. You’re checking the radius of the bus.
You’re measuring the ride height. You are listening for rattles. You’re making sure it accelerates as it should. You’re making sure the HVAC system actually does what it should do, that it’s not getting too hot inside the bus or too cold. You know, so there’s so much that goes into that that you have to look at. And you do an exterior- Um, inspection. So you’re making sure wiper blades are actually connected. You’re making sure all the wheels are torqued. You’re making sure that the, um, windows are aligned and that there aren’t gaps that shouldn’t be there, and that the paint is, you know, the way it should be done. And you are, basically you take a rolling ladder, you go around, you start at the entrance door, you go around the front of the bus, you go down the street side, you go down the rear of the bus, and all the way up to the, um, entry door. And you’re checking the engine compartment and you’re looking for wires that could be loose. You’re looking for leaks.
I mean, there’s just so much. And you go up on the roof, and then you do an underbody inspection, and you do a road test, and you do a water test, and you look for leaks. And you’d be amazed at how many leaks there are on a bus before it’s even been out on the road, because humans are building the bus. And so you, you go through that and you make sure the flooring is, um, flawless. You know, you make sure all the- Right … seats are tight.
You make sure grab straps are in where they should be and the cameras operate. So there’s a lot to look at, and there’s a lot of variants possible, and there’s, um, there’s just so many hundreds and hundreds of things that an inspector will look at.
And the person receiving the bus, they should rest assured that they have somebody there, you know. So, so, so- Go ahead … how, how long, how long does it typically take? I mean, because the buses have a lot of components, like you mentioned. Yeah. Different systems.
Depending how the bus is, is spec’d, like there’s agencies that may be, uh, in their technology, that they have very, you know, basic technology systems on the vehicles. There’s agencies that have more advanced, you know, design, uh, vehicles with many more technologies and functionalities.
So w- in, in a 40-foot, a standard low-floor bus, like how long does it take to complete a, a, an inspection of one vehicle? A 40-foot, to do a complete inspection, you’re looking at six hours.
That’s start to finish. Um, you know, that’s, that’s average. Some, some manufacturers it’ll be faster, some it’ll be slower.
It depends on, you know, what’s going on in their production floor and how many defects there happen to be, um, on the bus.
Somet- if, and it also depends on the propulsion system. If you have a diesel bus, that’s so much faster because you don’t have anything on the rooftop really that has to be inspected.
You don’t have CNG tanks, you don’t have batteries, you don’t have hybrid, h- you know, high-power cables on the rooftop. So the quickest ones to inspect are diesel, and then all the other different propulsion, um, types will add time to the, um, inspection process.
So I’d say average six hours for a 40-foot. It could be eight hours. Um, and if, if they’re doing really well on the production floor, it could be five hours.
So it depends, but, but I’d say average six hours. Hmm. So that, that, that’s a good, um… Like it’s a good idea to those folks ordering vehicles, how long would it take to get their vehicles inspected. What are some of the common findings?
Uh, especially as of lately, like I don’t know when was the last time you completed an inspection, uh, but like in your time completing inspections, what were some of the common findings? And I would imagine as an inspector, if I’m inspecting vehicles and often finding like the same kind of findings, first
I would, uh, look for those in other vehicles I’m inspecting and even check for those first. I don’t know if there’s like a protocol where you go in a systematic way through the inspection so you don’t jump to those things right away.
But, um, w- you know, what happen after there’s a finding? Like how, how do you… You know, so I know it’s a multi-question question, multi-faceted question, but like what are the common findings?
You know, um, how do you address them and, and you know, what are some of those things that maybe folks that are completing inspections, or ordering buses should be looking out for? Yeah. Yeah, great question. Um, common findings. There was, there was a period of time where every single camera on the exterior of a bus, it was a certain, um, came- camera manufacturer, they’d fill up with water. Mm. Uh-huh. They’d look like a little fishbowl.
You know? Wow. And, and if it’s a rainy period of time, you’ll go out there and not only is there water in the camera, um, but i- it’s also got a little bit of algae there, and I don’t think I saw any goldfish, but you know, I would often look for it- … and joke with, you know, the guys on the floor, “Hey, got another fish tank growing there. We need to get that’ fixed.” And it turned out it was a flaw. I don’t remember honestly if it was a flaw with the installation process or if it was something the manufacturer of the cameras had to, to change. But that, that went away. Um, but then, you know, when you know you’ve got that, that specific camera system, you’re looking for that, but then every time you inspect any bus after that for the rest of your life, you’re, you’re aware that that is a possibility, no matter what the camera system is. So, so you focus in on that. Um, then there’s a period of time where there were issues with a specific window manufacturer, and their windows were Notoriously leaky. Ugh. And it, so you, you get to know that. So it, it kinda, they come and they go, um, you know, because a manufacturer doesn’t wanna have defects like that.
So they’ll have their engineering team working on it with you as an inspector. ‘Cause as you start finding things, um, the, y- I basically had a rule that
I, that I taught my inspectors as I train them. You know, when you’re, when you find a defect, once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, three times is a pattern.
So that’s what I taught them to think like. So you find it once, no big deal. You find it twice, okay, this could be a coincidence, but if there are three times you find it, then you know you’ve got a pattern, and that’s something that needs to be addressed with the engineering team and the production team, and even quality needs to be made aware of it. Um, so some of, you know, there can be a period of time where, um, seats are rattling or, um, you know, it, it kinda goes through phases, and it depends on, like I said, the propulsion system as well because if you have, um,
CNG buses, you’re looking at totally different things than if you have a, a battery electric bus. Um, and if you have a hybrid electric, then some of the things kinda cross-pollinate between the two of them. And then hydrogen fuel cell has its own, um, set of issues. So depends on propulsion system, depends on kinda the,
I, I guess the timeframe that things are happening because, like I said, there are so many variables at play, um, that, that you just can’t predict. But as an inspector, the longer you do it, the more you have a catalog in your brain, and I would keep a running list of flaws and defects so that
I could remind myself, “Okay, this is something I’ve consistently been seeing. Let’s go back. Let’s make sure we don’t get this over and over and over again.” You know, so once, once you have been in it, um, you know these things. And there is a certain process. You ask the question, do you do it in a certain process? And the best, the best inspectors do have a consistent flow because it helps you get everything done and not miss things. If you’re bouncing all over the bus, you’re missing things. Guarantee it. If you have a flow, then you don’t miss as much. You know, any human will miss things, but-
Yeah … um, you know. I could inspect a bus, I could find 200 flaws. Someone else can come behind me, they could find 37 that I missed, you know?
But- But- Because we’re humans. Yeah. And, and, and it’s bound to happen. And, and that is why you have, you know, like bring the experts, uh, you know, uh, work collect- uh, collaboratively. Like, I, I would imagine people in the maintenance shop and, you know, they ins- they, they also have existing fleet that they fix and they do inspections on, right? They at least, you know, preventive maintenance and so on. So I would imagine those folks would also wanna touch the bus, they wanna see the bus. Sometimes they get the opportunity before delivery. Sometimes, you know, they could, uh, participate. Sometimes they don’t get to. But, like, having more eyes, more set of eyes checking the dis- different systems, it should certainly help.
Absolutely. In, in acceptance. So let’s say the case of the window or the camera. You find, uh, defective. So, so the, the bus cannot be accepted, and that, that will hold the bus from being into revenue service. Like, what happens with those s- situations? And, and also if, let’s say the camera provider. Do, do you see a lot of, um, finger-pointing like, “Oh, no, it’s because, you know, the bus manufacturer this,” and then the bus manufacturer saying, “Listen, you know, this is directly on this component that is provided by this company.” Do, do you see a lot of that back and forth, like pointing fingers, one? But the second piece is, like, are things that will hold the bus completely from being accepted and going to revenue service, or there are things that they could still put the bus in revenue service but then they fix after the fact? Yeah. Something as simple as the camera, um, the camera issue. And when I say simple, I mean, uh, it was always able to be corrected on the factory floor. So you, you make up a list. You wr- it’s called a snag list or a, a, um, some people call it a gig list. Uh, it’s all the defects on the bus. You h- you do one for the exterior, the interior, the functions, the rooftop, the underbody, um, and y- and the engine, and you road test and water test. You do all those, and they go into a little, they’re sheets basically, um, unless it’s electronically inspected.
Then the manufacturer goes through, and they put their team on repairing it, and then you come back the next day, or potentially two days later, and you go back and you review everything that you wrote up to, um, to make sure that they were corrected.
So with, in the case of the little camera w- that filled up with water, then you run it through a water test.
Uh, and as you go through the water test, if it comes out and there’s no water, no condensation, nothing inside the camera, then you sign it off as, as repaired.
Um, but a lot of times something like that, if it’s a persistent thing and it’s not because the manufacturer is, um, their process is not correct, uh, or, you know, the person online i- isn’t the person at fault and it happens to be the OEM, then there’s a conversation that happens with Myself or the inspector and the manufacturer and the transit authority, and you basically come to an agreement. They’ll often say, you know, “We need the buses, a little bit of water in the camera, as long as it gets fixed quickly, you know, as long as the, the OEM for the, uh, camera system is working on it, then we will authorize the inspector to sign for the bus.” If it’s down to that, if all the other issues are corrected and it’s just that little one, then go ahead and ship and fix it in the field. Uh, you know, and there’s always room for people to be reasonable. There’s always room for conversation. And so if you have a good, good person in between all that, that helps. Um, then the… But it all comes down to people’s expectations, um, and I know that’s, that’s something that can be misaligned at times.
And I’ve, I’ve worked with transit agencies who came in very combative, um, swinging fists right from day one, and maybe because they had a bad experience in the past, or maybe it’s just their culture, and it doesn’t make it easy for anybody. So if people can be reasonable and have conversations and realize that everybody has the same goal, and that is to get the bus off the production line and onto the streets and, you know, providing safe, um, transit, safe rides for the customers, then that’s ultimately the best thing.
So it all boils down to just, you know, people working together, communicating, and nobody trying to hide things from anybody. Sounds good, man. Very well said, and, and thank you for sharing those insights.
Uh, as we are, uh, wrapping up our episode, uh, you know, we’re gonna go into this recurring segment, which are our, uh, key takeaways. So let me go through some key takeaways that I wrote down from our, uh, conversation.
Uh, the first one I wrote down is you learn a lot, uh, by looking into what went wrong. Pretty much said you consider yourself a, a chief failure officer, uh, uh, as an inspector because, you know, you have to look for those mistakes, but, uh, you learn a lot from identifying them and, and be able to correct them. Um, the other piece that, that you, uh, spoke about and I wrote down is the communication, uh, within the team and, and especially across different, uh, areas of expertise is, is paramount. You know, some of the mistakes that happen on, on production and after vehicles are delivered is because not everybody was on the same page. And that leads me to the next one, which is, uh, you know, top-down decisions for bus technologies is not always ideal. Uh, you have to get the right people involved. You know, if somebody has this beautiful feature or, like, this, you know, let’s go with this trolley because it will be so cool and good for, you know, this operation, and, and they’re making that decision and, and maybe, you know, of course, somebody sitting at the top has the power of the pen and make the decisions. But then you’re not thinking or, or you will be missing on other implications that, you know, when you have the right people in the room, you would, you will be considering. So, you know, be careful with that top-down decisions for bus technologies.
Um, and another takeaway is consider having all the Lego pieces, uh, which is sometimes when we jump into a project or new technology, we’re really not putting every single piece in place.
And you could have 90% of the, the pieces, and you can build something that looks 90% completed, that, you know, pat on the back. Uh, but then it’s gonna, it’s not gonna be finished, and it’s gonna give headaches.
So make sure that as you are bringing new technologies, goes back to getting everybody involved because those, those people could identify pieces that were missing that we have to put in place. Um, you know, another one, uh, uh, uh, that I think is, is very important, I think it’s my last one, is buses are still being built by hu- humans. A- and that is why th- these inspections are, are, uh, critical.
Uh, you know, humans in, in a lot of these manufacturers, they do great work. With their experience and expertise, they get a lot of the, you know, manufacturing done in a proper manner where people deli- you know, are delivered quality products.
But still, they’re humans, and there’s mistakes that, that they could be making, they could be, uh, be getting distracted. So the inspections are pretty much, uh, paramount.
So did, did I capture most of it, Paul, or w- is there anything you would add? Yeah, no, I think that’s really good. Um, I don’t think you missed anything, so great job. There was one thing that
I thought of, um, as you were saying your last point there. There is a real lack of, uh, well, let me say a growing lack of experience in the industry.
Not that it hasn’t been there, but we’re at, I think we’re at a point where there are a lot of people retiring, a lot of people who have so much knowledge and so much experience, uh, in the entire industry, you know, whether they’re, uh, the director of maintenance or whether they are a mechanical superintendent or, you know, the procurement experts.
They’re, they have so much knowledge, and they, when they leave, there’s a real brain drain. And that’s one thing that I’ve, I’ve dealt with a lot is I’ve been talking to someone who’s suddenly whatever position, and they are feeling lost, and they need someone to guide them and to kind of hold their hand ’cause they’re like Yeah,
I, I, I was, like, in some other industry, and suddenly I’m in transit, and I don’t understand any of this. What’s going on here? You know, so it’s… I think we’re at a point in, in the transit industry where there needs to be a real transfer of knowledge, and
I think that is critical. I do, I talk to a lot of agencies who say, “We are, um, struggling to have quality people and to train our people and to build out, um, systems.”
So that’s, that, that I think is key, is transfer of knowledge, and I… You just, your last point made me think of that. Yeah, that, that is paramount, and, and, uh, we do see a lot of agencies, um, you know, struggling with that, so definitely is, is a note to keep in mind, uh, as we prepare for the next generation, um, you know, of, of leaders in our agencies.
Um, Paul, I wanna go through our next segment that is a recurring segment, which is our rapid fire segment, so, uh, short questions, short answers, first thing comes in mind.
Are you ready? Yes, sir. Bus or rail? Bus. Most common procurement mistake.
Uh, top-down leadership without consulting the people who actually use the product. One thing agencies should inspect more closely.
Their inspector. One thing OEMs wish agencies understood. OEMs wish agencies understood that there are a million different, literally a million different variables in, going into every single bus, and no two buses are the same because they’re built by humans, and there are thousands of parts involved.
Uh, one thing agencies wish OEMs understood. That they’re not as concerned about the OEM getting their numbers. They just want quality.
Best advice for someone stepping into a messy project. That is the best question, honestly. Y- you need to go in without ego, ’cause if you go in with ego, number one, you’re gonna fall flat on your face.
And I’ve seen it time and time and time again where someone goes in with ego. They go in, and they’re combative instead of trying to understand what’s going on, instead of being collaborative, instead of, um, trying to really comprehend why it’s messy.
They go in with a preconceived notion of either, “I’m the guy who’s gonna fix this,” or, “I’m gonna show them and make their life difficult.”
So I think going in with the right posture and attitude is the best thing you can do. Um, Paul, thank you for, uh, joining us at Stop Requested. Being part of the show is, is, uh, you know, awesome to have somebody with your background sharing those insights.
Um, for listeners who want to follow your work, connect with you, or learn more about what you’re doing, where should they go? Well, they can, um, look me up on LinkedIn.
It’s Paul Germo, G-E-R-M-O. Uh, that’s the easiest place to find me, or my email address at paulgermo@gmail.com.
And I also have a phone number that’s, you know, I get calls from all over the country, uh, uh, North America, really, and sometimes other countries where transit agencies need to speak to me, and that’s 320-492-1391. Excellent. Thank you, Paul, and, uh, for our listeners, thank you for joining us today for another episode of Stop Requested.
We hope to, uh, have you again next Monday.
