00:00 Stop Requested.
00:01 Levi McCollum: Welcome to Stop Requested, the podcast where we discuss everything transit.
00:05 Levi McCollum: I’m your co host Levi McCollum, director of operations at ETA.
00:10 Christian Londono: And I’m your co host Christian Londono, Senior customer Success Manager at ETA.
00:20 Levi McCollum: Welcome to Stop Requested. Today we have a very exciting episode.
00:25 Levi McCollum: I I’m very privileged to be speaking with David Carr, who is the director of zero emission Programs at Cap
00:33 Levi McCollum: Metro in Austin, Texas. David, thanks for joining us.
00:37 David Carr: Well, thank you for having me.
00:39 Levi McCollum: So David, I know that you work at Cap Metro.
00:44 Levi McCollum: You’ve obviously been very involved in their transition to zero emission vehicles.
00:51 Levi McCollum: Can you give a bit of your background in let our listeners know how you came to this role as
00:57 Levi McCollum: the director of zero emission program?
01:00 David Carr: Well, I’ve been in transit for about since 2013.
01:05 David Carr: Previous to that I worked in higher ed and I worked for a city and so I’ve been in fleet
01:12 David Carr: management pretty much my whole career.
01:16 David Carr: Working at the University of Washington.
01:18 David Carr: Introduced electric vehicles there, but they didn’t go over very well.
01:23 David Carr: Worked at Duke University for a minute and then at rtc, Regional Transportation Commission of Washoe County.
01:32 David Carr: I was there in 2013 and we had some of the very first Proterra BE35 electric vehicles.
01:39 David Carr: So I came into there and we had four of those buses and I worked there for almost nine years.
01:45 David Carr: And then this opportunity came here in Austin and you know, the scale, you know, in Reno we had a
01:53 David Carr: third of our fleet, about 25 vehicles was electric.
01:55 David Carr: Here, a third of our fleet is over 100 vehicles.
01:59 David Carr: So it’s a terrific opportunity and we’re introducing a lot of vehicles and it’s, it’s pretty cool.
02:08 Levi McCollum: Yeah, it does sound very cool.
02:10 Levi McCollum: I know there’s a lot of exciting projects happening at Cap Metro and in Austin.
02:15 Levi McCollum: You know, Texas generally there are a lot of cool things happening.
02:20 Levi McCollum: But just to zero in on Cap Metro and its commitment to sustainability, can you give us some insight as
02:26 Levi McCollum: to what those goals are and how far it’s come since you’ve been there?
02:32 David Carr: Well, I think I’ve got the best job in the world.
02:35 David Carr: I’m working on electric vehicles and fleet electrification.
02:40 David Carr: I had a hydrogen pilot project that we’re getting ready to t up for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.
02:45 David Carr: We’ve since pushed that off a little bit and I’ll touch on that later.
02:49 David Carr: I have a micro grid study that’s underway right now we’re building a 4.35 megawatt solar array at Northops and
02:58 David Carr: we’re looking to use that energy for our facilities or for our Buses and I also have an autonomous bus
03:05 David Carr: project that I’m working on. It’s a 40 foot new flyer bus.
03:11 David Carr: That’s basically one of our buses we took out of the fleet and we put automation bolt on automation and
03:17 David Carr: we are doing a demonstration of that in a couple of weeks.
03:20 David Carr: So it’s pretty neat as far as the overall commitment to sustainability.
03:25 David Carr: You know, Cap Metro has a target, a goal to be 100% zero emission by 2040 and to be completely
03:32 David Carr: carbon neutral by 2040. So the fleet is probably 60% of our emissions.
03:40 David Carr: So it’s really the main target and in some ways it’s the easier target because, you know, vehicles are, you
03:47 David Carr: know, you can buy vehicles and you can put them in service, but it’s also more challenging because the technology
03:52 David Carr: is different and we have to, you know, kind of transform our, our staffing, our maintenance, our knowledge in a
04:03 David Carr: way to where we can maintain and operate that type of a fleet.
04:08 David Carr: So so far we’ve purchased 104 battery electric vehicles.
04:11 David Carr: We’ve built out infrastructure for about 200 chargers.
04:16 David Carr: We have in route charging two BRT lines that are expected to be completed in 2025 and beginning of 2026.
04:26 David Carr: Right now the fleet is 104 battery electric buses.
04:30 David Carr: We have 92 new ones. We just received, I think we received the Last one couple three weeks ago and
04:35 David Carr: then we had 12 original battery electric buses.
04:40 David Carr: And this all aligns with our sustainability vision plan for not only Cap Metro’s fleet, but also the region.
04:50 Levi McCollum: I see that. I mean, that’s just fascinating that you have so many projects happening simultaneously and especially so many
04:57 Levi McCollum: that are concentrated on your sustainability efforts.
05:01 Levi McCollum: So what’s the overall fleet size as far as buses go?
05:06 David Carr: For Cap Metro, we have 415 diesel buses currently in the fleet and now we just added 104 battery electric.
05:15 David Carr: So. And we’re transitioning obviously those vehicles in and out.
05:18 David Carr: So.
05:20 Levi McCollum: Excellent. So that’s a pretty decent percentage of your vehicle vehicles then that are going to be completely electrically operated.
05:29 Levi McCollum: I mean, I don’t know that there are that many programs out there that are as ambitious as yours.
05:36 Levi McCollum: What has been that impetus to this push for electrification? Is there anything happening there locally in Austin that is
05:44 Levi McCollum: kind of informing what Cat Metro does? Or is this just maybe from the leadership at Cap Metro?
05:52 David Carr: Well, leadership at Cap Metro prior to my arrival was really focused on the broader sustainability vision plan, but also
06:03 David Carr: Project Connect and that had to do with rail Transit Oriented Development, a lot of other things that we could
06:13 David Carr: use our position providing transportation in the community in a way that was we could leverage that to have a
06:21 David Carr: broader impact on the community.
06:25 Levi McCollum: I see. And what has been this approach to your sustainability mission? Is it been let’s just replace them all
06:35 Levi McCollum: as quickly as we can, all the diesel buses that is, or is it more slow and methodical?
06:42 David Carr: Well, originally there was a Plan to purchase 200 battery electric vehicles and then to replace the entire fleet probably
06:48 David Carr: by 2035. And as we began exploring this area, putting vehicles into service, we began to realize there’s a lot
06:58 David Carr: of limitations on these vehicles. They don’t go as far.
07:01 David Carr: They require a lot of charging and infrastructure and there’s a lot of headwinds that we’ve encountered in terms of
07:09 David Carr: the political climate shifted. The workforce development plans are taking longer.
07:16 David Carr: I think the OEMs are struggling a little bit with their vehicles and they’re not as probably as reliable as
07:24 David Carr: the old diesel buses were. And so the transition has been a little bit, a lot, bit more challenging than
07:32 David Carr: anyone anticipated. And so we’re kind of slowing that down.
07:35 David Carr: And we’re going to be taking a pause at 104vehicles.
07:41 David Carr: This is still a pretty significant amount of our fleet, but we’re going to get that grounded and operate those
07:47 David Carr: vehicles, find where they fit, find the blocks of work that they work on, and then we’re going to look
07:51 David Carr: at what’s, what we’re calling technology of choice.
07:54 David Carr: You know, what’s going to be the best type of vehicle that’s coming down the coming down out of the
07:59 David Carr: market in the future. Whether that’s a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, we’re looking at doing a pilot, whether it’s they
08:05 David Carr: come up with new technology, solid state batteries, internal combustion engines that use hydrogen.
08:11 David Carr: There’s a lot of stuff that was happening and emerging in the market, but it’s not quite ready for primetime.
08:16 David Carr: So what we’re doing is we’ kind of slow in our role.
08:19 David Carr: We’re finding a positioning ourselves to be, you know, take the battery fleet we have and really make it a
08:24 David Carr: firm foundation, train our technicians and our operators how to operate that and optimize that use.
08:31 David Carr: And then we’re going to use hybrid vehicles.
08:33 David Carr: So that’s a combination of diesel and electric vehicle.
08:36 David Carr: And what we’ll do is we’ll expand our fleet using those vehicles because we’ll get, we’ll get some better fuel
08:44 David Carr: economy, so we’ll save money. They’re proving to be very reliable vehicles so we won’t have to worry about the
08:49 David Carr: impact on service. They’ll go anywhere that a diesel bus will go.
08:55 David Carr: So we can really look at where we put, we can put them anywhere in our service area and have
08:59 David Carr: a really good, really good reliability and dependability.
09:05 David Carr: And because that’s really what it’s about, we have to provide great customer service.
09:08 David Carr: We have to be able to make pull out every morning.
09:10 David Carr: We have the buses have to be on time, they have to be frequent and we have to do it
09:14 David Carr: in a way that it serves our customers.
09:17 David Carr: And so the battery electric bus, with all the promise it has, has not been to do that quite as
09:22 David Carr: effectively and efficiently as a diesel bus.
09:25 David Carr: So we are just managing those limitations of range and charging time, refueling time.
09:32 David Carr: And so we’re finding that niche for it, but we’re finding that that niche is not as big as we
09:37 David Carr: expected it to be. So we’ll carve out this niche, we’ll make it work.
09:41 David Carr: We’re going to have a really successful deployment, I believe, but then we’re going to use hybrids until that next
09:46 David Carr: generation of technology is emerges and then we’ll start to look at it in incremental, smaller incremental pieces and take
09:54 David Carr: smaller bites from the apple. And you know, if a hydrogen bus works, we’re going to go down that path.
09:58 David Carr: If some other technology emerges, we’re going to look at it in the small scale and then if it works
10:04 David Carr: well, we’ll deploy it on a larger scale.
10:07 Levi McCollum: I see. That makes a lot of sense.
10:08 Levi McCollum: So how long do you anticipate this pause taking place? Is it something that’s going to be a couple of
10:14 Levi McCollum: year process or perhaps longer? Are you just kind of waiting out the market to see what’s going to be
10:19 Levi McCollum: available?
10:20 David Carr: Well, there’s, you know, like I mentioned, there’s, there’s been some changes in the, you know, kind of the political
10:27 David Carr: climate. And so we’re trying to, we’re trying to sort through that and, and see where things are going.
10:33 David Carr: You know, it’s expensive. You know, we have a fiduciary duty to, you know, our citizens and our customers.
10:41 David Carr: And you know, this technology is very, very expensive.
10:43 David Carr: So, you know, rather than taking a plunge and investing, you know, millions and millions of dollars, we’re going to
10:49 David Carr: take a smaller bite and we’re going to look at, monitor the market closely.
10:54 David Carr: I think there’s going to be a pause for a few years.
10:56 David Carr: I think we’re going to, it’s going to take us a minute to get our fleet kind of in order
11:01 David Carr: and get it in a position where it’s working reliably independently on a day to day basis.
11:08 David Carr: And once we can achieve that, then we’re going to start looking forward.
11:12 David Carr: But you know, it takes a couple of years to order a bus.
11:15 David Carr: So if I need buses in two years, I have to order them now.
11:20 David Carr: So the timing is always a little goofy with that because you want to be able to plan ahead.
11:27 David Carr: But if you order a bus today, it’s going to be obsolete by the time it’s delivered.
11:31 David Carr: So we have to be mindful about our choices.
11:34 David Carr: And so taking a pause now, I think it’ll be a couple of years.
11:37 David Carr: The hybrids will buy us that time because we’re going to work with high voltage systems.
11:41 David Carr: So the technicians are still learning the high, high energy, high voltage and battery powered system.
11:46 David Carr: But we have the reliability of diesel to go with that.
11:49 David Carr: So we feel we can, with that technology, we can make move, continue to move forward.
11:54 David Carr: We’re lowering our emissions footprint, but we’re also providing that, that bedrock, reliable, dependable service that we need to make
12:03 David Carr: full out every day.
12:06 Levi McCollum: How has the transition been with your technicians and your operators? Has there been any pushback or has it just
12:13 Levi McCollum: been folks embracing the technology and wanting more of it? Is it somewhere in between?
12:19 David Carr: Well, there’s a paradox when you’re working on a fleet with diesel mechanics.
12:25 David Carr: They are really good at working on diesel buses.
12:27 David Carr: So if a diesel bus breaks, takes them four hours to fix it and they fix two buses a day,
12:31 David Carr: it’s pretty good system. On an electric bus, we are not really sure what’s wrong with it.
12:37 David Carr: The technicians that we’re getting from the OEMs, they’re not really sure what’s going on.
12:42 David Carr: And so they may take a bus.
12:43 David Carr: It might take two or three days to figure out what’s wrong with it and then another couple days to
12:47 David Carr: fix it. Well, you know, are you going to fix, you know, four or five buses, diesel buses, and put
12:53 David Carr: them in service, or are you going to work fix one bus? And other buses are now being sidelined.
12:58 David Carr: And the fact that these buses are covered by a warranty, you have the OAM technicians here fixing the buses,
13:04 David Carr: so why are we going to work on them? We have these guys fixing them under warranty and then when
13:08 David Carr: the warranty expires in two years, we haven’t really learned a lot about them.
13:13 David Carr: And then they’re thrust upon us and we have to start figuring it out from scratch.
13:18 David Carr: So I think there’s some foundational hurdles, structural hurdles that we have to overcome.
13:25 David Carr: And there has to be a way for us to learn about the technology, find a way to get proficient
13:29 David Carr: at it. And then because if you train them today, our technicians today on battery electric buses and they don’t
13:35 David Carr: work on them for two years, well, that training is kind of wasted.
13:39 David Carr: Now. What we’ve done is we’ve developed what we call a hotshot program.
13:42 David Carr: So we have some technicians that are assigned to work on just the battery electric buses.
13:47 David Carr: And so those guys are the seed, right? They’re going to learn how to do this.
13:51 David Carr: They’re going to be the ones that are going to mentor to the other technicians and we’re going to create
13:55 David Carr: an environment where being a high voltage battery electric bus technician is supported and fostered and they’re going to work
14:04 David Carr: with OEM technicians and then we’re going to hopefully establish a pretty solid basis knowledge so that going forward we’ll
14:13 David Carr: be able to fix these buses and maintain these buses as well as our other buses.
14:18 Levi McCollum: It sounds like you have a pretty good plan in place then.
14:22 Levi McCollum: Clearly, it takes more than just your operators, your technicians, your administrative staff.
14:28 Levi McCollum: You also have to have the broader community involved in this transition.
14:33 Levi McCollum: I’m sure. How have the municipalities like the city of Austin and perhaps others, your energy provider, how have, how
14:42 Levi McCollum: instrumental have they been in this transition thus far?
14:46 David Carr: Well, I think they’re supportive. City of Austin is really.
14:50 David Carr: I talk to them frequently. I’m presenting to them tomorrow or Wednesday what our current status of our fleet is.
14:59 David Carr: Generally, the region is very, very supportive of this.
15:03 David Carr: Austin energy really has been. While they’ve been very, very supportive, they really don’t know any more than we knew
15:14 David Carr: about it when we started. So we’re coming to them saying, well, we need you to help us.
15:18 David Carr: And they say, well, what do you need? We said, well, we’re not sure.
15:20 David Carr: Can you tell us? And they’re not.
15:22 David Carr: So we’re really not in the best spot with them because we need to have a way to have our
15:30 David Carr: energy rates and tariffs aligned with what our mission is.
15:34 David Carr: And we’re just getting a general commercial rate.
15:38 David Carr: So if I have a building and I have it on, that’s the rate they’re charging me.
15:42 David Carr: Well, using electricity for fuel is different than using electricity for building and so our charging duty cycles are different.
15:49 David Carr: So we’re working this through this kind of together and we meet with them rather frequently on our capital projects
15:55 David Carr: in our construction. So we’re putting our transformer switch gear in and we’re working with them very, very well and
16:00 David Carr: they’re very, very supportive. But as far as the energy rate, how much we have to pay for the energy,
16:05 David Carr: how we consume the energy, that’s a new field for all of us.
16:09 David Carr: And we’re kind of muddling through that a little bit.
16:12 David Carr: The FTA has been awesome. They are our champion.
16:15 David Carr: They are the ones kind of leading this in a lot of ways.
16:19 David Carr: I work with FTA on a couple of projects.
16:22 David Carr: The funding that we get from the FTA is critical.
16:25 David Carr: We couldn’t move down this path without that.
16:28 David Carr: Their staff is, you know, the staff that I work with directly are really wonderful people and they were doing
16:35 David Carr: a really good job in supporting us.
16:37 David Carr: And I think that, you know, all three Austin Energy, City of Austin FTA have done a really great job
16:45 David Carr: in supporting us and helping us advance to where we are today.
16:49 Levi McCollum: Oh, that’s great to hear. Are there any other key partnerships that you have in the area, you know, perhaps
16:56 Levi McCollum: with some nonprofits or others that you could let our listeners know about and maybe this could give them some
17:02 Levi McCollum: ideas about, you know, how they can further engage their community when they’re making this transition?
17:07 David Carr: Well, the key is your utility provider.
17:10 David Carr: You have to have a great rapport with them and then you have to educate them because they don’t know
17:15 David Carr: anything about electric vehicles and any more than we do at the scale because, you know, battery electric bus has
17:22 David Carr: 660 kilowatts on board, it charges overnight and, you know, we have, we’ll have charging capability between 60kW to 450kW.
17:34 David Carr: And so that’s a lot of energy.
17:35 David Carr: It’s a lot of, a lot of energy for fuel.
17:40 David Carr: Our other partners here are our OEMs, the original equipment manufacturers.
17:46 David Carr: We rely on them for the training and for the knowledge, obviously for the equipment, for tools and support.
17:53 David Carr: On one hand we work with New Flyer and they’ve done a really fantastic job.
17:57 David Carr: They’re providing a lot of resources and they’re really doing their best to keep our buses up and running and
18:03 David Carr: operate on a high level efficiency.
18:06 David Carr: I don’t know if you’ve heard, but Proterra, the buses, we bought 40 of them.
18:10 David Carr: They went bankrupt. Yes, that was a tremendous impact to the industry.
18:14 David Carr: And really, I think it’s a pretty dramatic setback to the industry as a whole and to us as an
18:20 David Carr: agency. The company that’s acquired them, Phoenix Motor Cars, they’re struggling to get their footing and they’re not able to
18:30 David Carr: provide the same level of service.
18:31 David Carr: And we’re hoping that they’re able to kind of come around and get that footing.
18:37 David Carr: But right now we’re not really seeing a lot of support because I Think their resources are just not on
18:42 David Carr: the level as a new Flyer or the Proterra was originally.
18:46 David Carr: Some of our other partners, Camber, Camber was spun off from Proterra.
18:51 David Carr: Camber is the, the charger portion of that.
18:56 David Carr: And so they built our South Ops chargers.
18:59 David Carr: We have two 1.44 megawatt chargers with 48 dispensers.
19:03 David Carr: Those chargers are working really well.
19:05 David Carr: And they’re charging our new Flyer and our Proterra buses, Holt Renewables.
19:09 David Carr: They’re working on our Northrop space where we’re going to have the 4.35 megawatt solar array plus 30 chargers and
19:17 David Carr: 90 pantographs. So this will be one of the largest pantograph deployments in the US and they’re doing a really
19:24 David Carr: good job on putting that together.
19:26 David Carr: And we’ll see that by the end of 2025, beginning of 2026.
19:31 David Carr: Some other partners, Pickle, Westinghouse, they’ve supported us on some of the Chargers and so they’ve been.
19:41 David Carr: And then our consultants, you know, there’s several consultants we work with and they bring a really unique value in
19:47 David Carr: that they have industry experts, subject matter experts that help us.
19:53 David Carr: I’ve been doing this since the inception of electric vehicles in 2013.
19:57 David Carr: So I consider myself a subject matter expert.
20:00 David Carr: And sometimes we argue and actually.
20:04 David Carr: But they’re very good, they’re very supportive and, and using those firms to help us has been invaluable.
20:10 David Carr: As far as workforce development. We’ve really worked with the OEMs, but we’re looking at a couple of things where
20:18 David Carr: we want to develop our own, somewhat like an academy where we’re going to create a training curriculum where all
20:29 David Carr: the technicians and everyone, all the operators get trained on battery electric vehicles.
20:35 David Carr: Um, and so we have a basic level of training, you know, don’t cut the orange wires and how to
20:41 David Carr: operate an electric vehicle to be the most fuel efficient.
20:43 David Carr: So we’re, we’re developing those train, we’re training the trainers, we’re developing those materials and we’ll be able to implement
20:49 David Carr: that in a way that gives us a solid orientation and a way to get started.
20:54 David Carr: But as far as going to the next levels of training, level one, level two, level three, we’re, we’re trying
21:01 David Carr: to sort that out a little bit.
21:03 David Carr: I’ve talked to acc, I’ve looked at other training materials, other different institutes and such.
21:12 David Carr: So we’re looking kind of casting about trying to find a good partner to be able to develop that.
21:19 David Carr: I think it’s important that we have a hands on training Component.
21:23 David Carr: We just hired a training specialist that’s going to be help develop the curriculum and develop the training program and
21:29 David Carr: really that’s going to be a big hands on element.
21:32 David Carr: So the critical point there for workforce development I think is that hands on training, but also that training the
21:41 David Carr: trainer and learning ourselves and tying it back to those hot shots so we have this fundamental knowledge base so
21:51 David Carr: that as we go forward we’ll be able to build on that and any new technology we get, we’ll be
21:56 David Carr: able be more flexible and adaptable to be able to implement that.
22:02 Levi McCollum: Just to follow up there on that acc, that’s Austin Community College, is that right?
22:07 David Carr: Yes.
22:07 Levi McCollum: Okay. Okay. Just wanted to make sure to get that clarification for our listeners.
22:12 Levi McCollum: There was something that you mentioned earlier, David, that I want to go back to Project Connect.
22:17 Levi McCollum: Can you give us just a brief description of what that is and why that even came to be at
22:23 Levi McCollum: Cap Metro?
22:25 David Carr: It’s really about making the communities most sustainable.
22:28 David Carr: We’re leveraging transit resources to enhance sustainability, connectivity and access to opportunities.
22:34 David Carr: Not only opportunities, but to jobs and to education and to, you know, other social resources, whether it’s health, social
22:44 David Carr: services, even just things like libraries and stuff.
22:48 David Carr: So that connectivity is critical and at the core of what we’re doing, but also creating the livable spaces and
22:55 David Carr: especially in historically disinvested communities in the region.
22:59 Levi McCollum: Excellent, thanks for that. You know, I want to kind of wrap up our conversation and talk about some of
23:06 Levi McCollum: the challenges that you faced. It sounds like, you know, on the outside things are going pretty smoothly, but I
23:13 Levi McCollum: know having worked at an agency that, you know, you always hit some hurdles.
23:18 Levi McCollum: And you mentioned the example of Proterra, you know, filing for bankruptcy.
23:24 Levi McCollum: I know that was a huge hit.
23:25 Levi McCollum: Are there any other challenges or concerns that kind of keep you up at night, Levi?
23:31 David Carr: I think there’s, there’s a belief that like, well, the way I explain it is like the bus is the
23:41 David Carr: easy part. You know, you can order a bus, you can buy it and it’s delivered.
23:45 David Carr: That’s the easy part. The infrastructure, the workforce development, the operational integration, all that presents challenges that are new to
23:56 David Carr: us. You know, the diesel technology has been around a long time and so, you know, our technicians are well
24:01 David Carr: versed in it. Our operators know how to drive diesel buses.
24:04 David Carr: So suddenly we’re asking them to drive the bus differently, try not to use as much energy, use the regeneration
24:10 David Carr: capabilities of the bus and make it more efficient.
24:13 David Carr: We’re asking our technicians to plug in a laptop and look at the diagnostics, look at look at codes and
24:20 David Carr: look at other data and assimilate from that, what is it that this vehicle might need? And so those are
24:29 David Carr: the educational challenges, but just the infrastructure building, chargers, getting the, you know, transformers, switch gear, all that stuff built,
24:39 David Carr: you know, none of it happens quickly or overnight.
24:42 David Carr: And then once we have that technology now, it’s like, how do we maintain this, how do we operate this,
24:47 David Carr: how do we do this in a way, how do we use the energy in a way that’s cost effective?
24:51 David Carr: Because if you park all your buses in exactly the same time and charge them all at the maximum capability,
24:56 David Carr: you’re going to get a big electric bill.
24:58 David Carr: So, so how do we do that? How do we, you know, we learn about how electric rates are developed
25:03 David Carr: and, and build and we say, well, maybe we don’t charge them all at the same time.
25:08 David Carr: Maybe we spread that out and we reduce that peak over a period of time or use software or other
25:14 David Carr: things to make it so we can manage that better.
25:17 David Carr: So from going from a diesel bus where you just put the nozzle in and fill it up, to being
25:21 David Carr: almost energy managers, we’re managing the amount of energy we’re using.
25:28 Levi McCollum: I see. So is there, is there a specific software that you’re using right now to be able to manage
25:34 Levi McCollum: this energy and make sure that you go to charge, you know, a portion of your vehicles that you’re, you’re
25:40 Levi McCollum: not going to be hit with such a huge electricity bill? Or is that part of the ecosystem that is
25:46 Levi McCollum: yet to be fully developed?
25:49 David Carr: I think the latter. I think we’re really, we have software that’s resident on our equipment, so we have bus
25:55 David Carr: software, we have charger software. The thing is, we have, you know, nine different kinds of buses and seven different
26:01 David Carr: kinds of chargers. And so there’s, there’s no one pane of glass to look at all this and to try
26:09 David Carr: to come up with a way to integrate that.
26:11 David Carr: And then we’re also looking at our building management systems and our other things in terms of being more sustainable.
26:17 David Carr: So now we’re looking at, with our electric micro grid facilities, building management systems, our charger management systems, our bus
26:28 David Carr: telemetry, we have a whole new arena of technology software.
26:33 David Carr: And it’s really, it’s intriguing. I’ve been working with our, we have an analyst that’s dedicated to help us to
26:40 David Carr: look at our vehicle performance, look at our charger performance and trying to find a way that we can optimize
26:48 David Carr: this without impacting operations. Because that’s really the key.
26:51 David Carr: You know, it doesn’t matter how much how we do it, as long as the buses all make pull out
26:56 David Carr: and as long as they operate efficiently and effectively, that’s what we want to get to.
27:00 David Carr: But behind the scenes, there’s ways to do that in a way that doesn’t cost as much.
27:04 David Carr: There’s ways to monitor it and manage it in a way that it’s unique and will enhance the way we
27:09 David Carr: deliver maintenance. And we can be more efficient and we can put optimize where these vehicles are operating and how
27:16 David Carr: they’re being operated. And then on the energy side, really, if we can utilize all these resources in a way
27:22 David Carr: that lowers our carbon footprint overall, it makes for a much better agency than just diesel buses driving around all
27:30 David Carr: the time.
27:32 Levi McCollum: Right, right. Completely understandable. And Christian and I have had similar conversations on the Stop Requested podcast about some of
27:40 Levi McCollum: the potential drawbacks of electric vehicles.
27:43 Levi McCollum: In the sense that you don’t want to offer the electric vehicles at the expense of frequency on a route.
27:51 Levi McCollum: If you’ve got 20 minute headway and you have to go to 30 minute headway because of charging restraints or
27:58 Levi McCollum: things like that, then you’re, you’re actually hurting the folks that you’re trying to serve.
28:03 David Carr: Well, I agree with that to some extent.
28:06 David Carr: But you know, I think the best form of transportation in terms of sustainability is, is a bus.
28:11 David Carr: You know, you can put 30, 40, 60, 100 people on a bus.
28:14 David Carr: That’s 30, 40, 600 cars that are not on the road.
28:18 David Carr: So it doesn’t really matter what we’re fueling them with because that’s inherently more sustainable.
28:25 David Carr: Now when we add electric buses there or a hydrogen bus or any other technology.
28:30 David Carr: Yeah, there is that. But at the same time, for example, on our BRT routes, we’re gonna, when that’s fully
28:36 David Carr: built out, we’re gonna have 450 kilowatt chargers at end of line.
28:42 David Carr: So the bus will go out and it’ll drive on the route.
28:44 David Carr: When it comes back, It’ll charge for 15, 20 minutes.
28:47 David Carr: It’ll pick up, you know, a 10, 20, 30% state of charge and be able to take the lap again.
28:52 David Carr: And over the course of the day, it can, it can operate indefinitely with that type of configuration.
28:59 David Carr: So there’s ways you can do this that doesn’t affect headways and doesn’t impact that as long as you have
29:05 David Carr: the infrastructure to support it. And that’s where it gets complicated because how much charging do you need? Where, how
29:10 David Carr: long does it need to charge and then how many buses do you need? So it becomes maybe less it
29:16 David Carr: becomes less than simple arithmetic, arithmetic equation.
29:20 David Carr: And because it becomes a, an algorithm, you have to start looking at, well, what are all the, what are
29:26 David Carr: all the different variables and what are all the different calculations we have to do in such a way to
29:30 David Carr: make this work.
29:33 Levi McCollum: Are there any other pieces of advice that you can offer some of our listeners who perhaps are working at
29:39 Levi McCollum: transit agencies?
29:41 David Carr: Well, I think that you want to explore it, you want to see if it fits in your application.
29:49 David Carr: I think there’s opportunities to reduce your emissions.
29:52 David Carr: That doesn’t mean you have to go full electric, but there’s certainly things you can do to, to improve your
29:56 David Carr: efficiency and how you operate. I think that, you know, I worked in a smaller agency, so we went small.
30:05 David Carr: We had four buses and you know, and then we got 17 buses, you know, and so don’t.
30:11 David Carr: I think that if you go big, it’s a big problem.
30:17 David Carr: You know, I think if you can find incremental ways to start, you can, you can find a niche that
30:22 David Carr: it works in. Our first four buses in Reno went on a six mile circular downtown and the buses range
30:29 David Carr: was like 35 miles. Yet we operated that circulator for several years.
30:33 David Carr: It was working fine. But we had in route charging.
30:37 David Carr: So the technology that we use and the application we had fit the duty cycle that we had.
30:43 David Carr: And so when we had that, it was a good opportunity.
30:46 David Carr: But if you’re a smaller agency or a rural area, your distances are so long and the margin for error
30:55 David Carr: is greater in terms of, I mean, the equipment reliability and such.
31:00 David Carr: You really need to have dependable vehicles.
31:02 David Carr: So, and not to say that these aren’t dependable, they’re just, they’ve proven to be more problematic and they’re harder
31:07 David Carr: to repair. There’s a whole learning curve to it.
31:11 David Carr: And so there’s a lot more to it than, you know, the basic diesel technology.
31:16 David Carr: So I would go small, I would go, you know, very.
31:21 David Carr: Be very aware of your duty cycle and just see if you can find that niche.
31:27 David Carr: And then if that’s successful and it’s working, then you move forward from there.
31:31 David Carr: But, but baby steps, crawl before you walk and walk before you run.
31:37 Levi McCollum: That’s great advice. And that really applies to a lot of things in life.
31:39 Levi McCollum: Right. To start small, I think sometimes we can get in a little bit over our head, you know, over
31:47 Levi McCollum: our skis a bit and that can come back to bite us.
31:49 Levi McCollum: So that, that is really good advice.
31:52 Levi McCollum: And David, I want to say I really appreciate this conversation for you agreeing to, come on, it’s been really
32:00 Levi McCollum: an excellent 30 minutes here, so thank you so much.
32:04 David Carr: Well, thank you, Levi. I really appreciate the opportunity.
32:07 Levi McCollum: Thank you to all of our listeners.
32:09 Levi McCollum: We will be back next week with another episode of Stop Requested.