Inside MARTA’s 1,000 Amenity Program That Transforms Bus Stops for Everyone with Corentin Auguin, Manager of Special Projects and Analysis

Stop Requested. Welcome to Stop Requested, the podcast where we discuss everything transit. I’m your co-host, Levi McCollum, director of operations at ETA Transit. And I’m your co-host, Christian Londono, senior customer success manager at ETA Transit.

Welcome back to Stop Requested. Christian, how are you today? Doing great, Levi. How about yourself? Man, I’m doing very well. It’s a Friday, and we’ve got a good conversation with someone I’ve known for quite some time. He was in the APTA Emerging Leaders Program with me several years back. Corentin Auguin, who is the manager of special projects and analysis at MARTA. Corentin, how are you doing? I’m doing great. Like you said, it’s a Friday, enjoying good transit conversation with you guys, so I’m excited to be here. Yeah. Th- this is excellent, because you have a lot of expertise in bus stops, bus stop planning and amenities, and s- we are also going to broaden the conversation a bit and talk about ADA today.

I, I know that’s, that’s a particular focus of yours, Uh, and considering that we just hit the 35th anniversary of the ADA law, that was on July 26th, uh, we felt like it would be a good conversation, uh, to have and share with our listeners how you think about ADA at the bus stop level. But before we get into that, uh, I would like to introduce our audience to you, Corentin.

how did you get into transit? Can you give us some of your background? Y- Uh, sure. It was a pretty undirect, long-winded way, um, for me to land in transit. Uh, I was originally, I went to school for really, um, business, and shortly after I did my undergrad, I quickly realized I wasn’t that great at selling things. I, m- very little interest in doing so, uh, but I really much enjoyed traveling around Europe.

Uh, I was born in France, and just very used to riding transit, trains, buses, all, you name it, all the modes. Um, so I… that’s when I started digging into city planning and eventually landed at Georgia Tech to, to, to study city planning.

And I was just very focused on, on the transit part of city planning, really geared up to take all the classes that were focused on that aspect of, of planning, and, um, eventually, you know, I had to do an internship in grad school.

The local transit agency w- in Atlanta, where I was, uh, is MARTA, and I managed to, to get an int- internship there, which converted into, uh, eventually a full-time job, which I’ve been in for the past, uh, 11 years now.

Started as an intern. Now, really worked my way up, um, within the same office really that I’m in today.

And initially, I was doing a lot of the work in the field for many years, as what we would call the bus stop planner, um, just making sure that all the stops are where they need to be and in a condition they need to be, and that all the data on the backend in the systems for the buses and whoever in the authority needs the, the data and information, th- all of that was clean and as good as it can be.

Um, and then kind of made my way up, um, within that group to, uh, being the manager of it today.

Got a great team of bus stop planners, um, and essentially we ma- manage, um, MARTA’s 8,600 bus stops and

1,800 amenities across the, the three counties that we serve. So can you walk us through a typical day-to-day? You said you got a team of people and you oversee th- th- those bus stops, but what does it look like for you being a manager? The best way I, I describe it probably is imagine having 8,600 kids scattered acro- across three counties, and there’s always, every day, there’s one that gets in trouble.

Um, so as much as we try to be proactive, you know, getting ahead of, of potential issues with bus stops, whether, uh, it’s placement, new routing, uh, just regular making sure the maintenance is there, uh, there’s always something going on. It could be, you know, um, a business owner who’s not pleased with a bus stop there. Maybe he just bought the business, didn’t realize there was a bus stop and that needs to be looked at. And it’s so… any…

or it could be someone requesting an amenity or bus stop, uh, where there’s not one, for example. So we always go take a look, assess. Um,

I think most transit agencies who have a lot of bus stops, you know, there’s some kind of legacy there where some stops have been there for decades untouched, and not necessarily reassessed all the time. Like we, we um, do our best to kind of go through as many as we can every year and vet that i- is the best, absolute best it can be. But there’s always some that will fall through the cracks. So, um, the day-to-day is really a bit of addressing the concerns and requests of our, all the stakeholders, whether they are our customers, our j- j- jurisdictional partners, um, whoever really is in the public right away, uh, near bus stops.

And then the other part of that is also being proactive and trying to get ahead of those, um, as much as we can, looking at spacing, conditions, um, accessibility, all that we’re about to discuss today. Wow. Th- and, and that’s a lot. I tell you that, uh, um, you know, when I worked for Palm Tree, I was in a similar position, uh, and Palm Tree has 3,000 bus stops. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Uh, how many bus stops does MARTA have? Yeah. 8,600. Yeah. So

I imagine that, uh, uh, it’s a lot of requests and there’s- Yeah. … a lot of things and, and, you know, things are changing out there, uh, in all the roads every day…. right? Like sometimes- Yes. … even the bus stop spacing and- Yes. …

how your stops are configured might be okay one day, like when you just place the bus stops up and they’re perfect, and then you turn around working on a project and come back and it happens that a bus stop sign was stolen- Yep. … that somebody’s run it over-

Yeah. … that, you know, there’s construction going on. So- Absolutely. … it’s, it’s a challenge. Uh, I wanna ask you, you know, if you can tell us a little bit about, you know, how do you guys manage those bus stops and also, uh, looking at the ADA aspect of it, right? Like, that accessibility. How are you assessing, uh, you know, your bus stops? How many are, you know, ADA or not and, and, and working towards making them accessible?

Um, Mm-hmm. due, due to your comment about conditions changing all the time, one of the typical day would be our bus operators calling in and saying, “Hey, guys, uh, there is a new turn lane over there and we’re not turning. Can you move the stop because we cannot be there?” So that’s, that’s, that’s another typical day in the life of a bus stop planner.

So absolutely. Um, yeah. The way, the way my team looks at ADA is really kind of a, a three-step, uh, process, if you will. We look at first the access, right? The, the first step in a transit journey usually is to get to the transit, um, that could be on foot, that could be on bike, scooters, uh, it could be, you know, maybe someone drops you off. But for this context, we think about mostly, like, pedestrians.

That’s the first part is, is the access. Um, and the part that we really look, look into as far as compliance with ADA is Section 402. Um, if you all go into the, the Access Board ADA document, you’ll see

Chapter 4, Section 402, that’s what we’re talking about here, is working surfaces, includes the curbs, ramps, the slopes, the cross-slopes, um, in pretty detailed manner. Um, the second part that we look at is once you get there, you, you are at your bus stop, uh, there might be some waiting time, you know, you’re waiting on the bus, um, and that would be

Chapter, like, 8, Section 810, which is, um, basically transit facilities, and that has to do with your typical, uh, pad, landing pad for, for customers to be able to load, unload wheelchairs.

Um, also would have a little bit of, um, language in Section 305, and that’s specifically about, for example, shelters, where you need to have room- Mm-hmm. … under the shelter for wheelchairs so they don’t, they’re not, you don’t have a shelter but then they’re sitting out in the rain. They ha- they have to have enough space there, which is typically 30 by 48 inches, um, under that, that roof.

Um, so that’s the second part of ADA we look at, 810 and Section 305. And then the final little one, uh, which is not necessarily little, especially in the urban core, is Chapter 7, um, Section 703, and that’s all, all that has to do with signage.

Um, it might seem or sound trivial, but in an urban core like Atlanta, there is a lot of competition and sometimes narrow sidewalks for a lot of signage, you know, think about everybody putting signage out there. So that represent sometimes some major mobility constraints for people who are potentially, you know, have visibility impairment-

Right. … uh, or, or in a wheelchair. I’m s- I’m sure we all have seen the good old telephone pole smack in the middle of the sidewalk and you have two he- two feet on both sides of the telephone pole to go around. If you’re on foot, that’s fine. If you’re in a wheelchair, uh,

I don’t know, like, you, you just can’t go through it. Um, so that, it’s kind of how we, we break it down and, and we have programs and processes for, for each of those, um, steps along the transit journey. Yeah. It’s never-ending, so you’re, you’re constantly tackling, uh, bus stops. And, and, and the other thing is in terms of the accessibility problems, uh, would you say that, you know, every bus stop is different, right? Like, that every stop sometimes is, is its own situation?

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Um, most cities I would be ready to bet, at least in, in Atlanta that’s how it is, you have your urban core where usually, uh, the problem is not so much ramps, crossings, or sidewalks.

It would be more so, as I mentioned, the signage and, and the sidewalks not… It’s not that they’re not there, it’s that they might be blocked with a lot of competition for the space.

So that’s, will be the urban core. Then you have all your set of stop that are kind of in, I would say, more rural part of our service area on the outskirts, at least at MARTA.

At those, you, you are in areas where there’s not necessarily enough density for the local jurisdictions or even the federal government to really rationals fully putting sidewalks. I think everybody would like to have them there, but if, if it’s very sparse, sparsely populated, you, you know, you probably don’t see that. It’s, it can be just grass or dirt, uh, and that is a whole new set of challenge for people who, who have to ride the bus, right? They, they still have to navigate these conditions to get where they need to be.

And then you have the in-between, um, lower, like, residential, less density in there. Typically, we might be looking more at, um, it’s kind of a combination of both where you have essentially no sidewalk, maybe on, just on one side, so you have to deal with just one side having sidewalk and then also maybe sidewalks in disrepair, um, a bit more. You know, they’re not in the core where you have a lot of eyes on it and a lot more traffic and they might get fixed more often.

Um, so the… I would say three tiers, at least for what I have to deal with, uh, and each of them present their own, um, challenges, um-… probably the, the more, the one lacking sidewalks, I think, is, is, uh, are the hardest one to, to really address and deal with, because we are often looking at a trade-off where

I can put a stop that I know, you know, is not gonna meet ADA. There’s no sidewalk. There might not be a sidewalk for a mile, or there might be no crossing for a mile.

Or I could not put a stop, but people still need to go where they need to go. So if I don’t put it, they might just have to walk in that grass, get backed to traffic in the dark for a mile.

So it’s kind of waiting, do I prefer them walking for a mile in sometimes less than ideal condition, or do I find the best spot for them to wait that, you know, as making it as safe as we can and as accessible as we can, and then at least they are there and, like, monitoring until the bus gets there and then it takes them where they need to be?

So it’s, it’s always a trade-off on, for ADA, at, at least in the parts that don’t have good sidewalk and crosswalk connections. Yeah. The, and that’s the challenge, is, uh, particularly because if you do bring, uh, fixed-route service to those areas, you’re obligated to provide paratransit-

Mm-hmm. … because that’s what, uh, it also end up happening even in the areas that are not as suburban or rural and they’re more, like, urban, but they have, uh, accessibility challenges, which is that if somebody lives right next to that bus stop that has accessibility challenges, uh, then they can be approved for ADA, right? Mm-hmm. And ADA is super expensive. It, it is, uh- Mm-hmm. Yeah. … a tremendous service, and I think differentiators, uh, between, you know, the US transit, um, environment and other countries one of those is the paratransit service.

Um, but, um, you know, h- have you track, uh, as you’re saying, you have this methodical, um, step-by-step process where you’re assessing all the different bus stops, do you track any metrics on accessibility and, and have you seen them decline with some of your accessibility, uh, projects? We… So we, we have a bus stop database, and we track as best as we can, um,

20-ish probably different attributes. In a way, we’re looking at, uh, obviously the basics, what’s, what’s the, the stop number, the stop name, what street is it on, what, at street is it on, what routes are associated to that bus stop, what are the GPS coordinates.

Um, and then we have some measures that would touch with ADA. We, um, for example, is there a sidewalk or no sidewalk? Is there, um, a curb cut, more like a ramp, or not?

Uh, can you unfold the bus, um, wheelchair ramp at this location?

Uh, so by tracking those, those few attributes, we’re able to, it, to, to get an idea of how accessible the bus stop is.

Um, we definitely wanna, you know, get to a point where maybe we have the, all the cross-slopes measured and then, and, and, and all of that. Like, there’s a lot of metrics associated with ADA.

What makes it really hard, as we touched on at the beginning of the, of this conversation, is conditions are constantly changing.

And when you operate across three counties, um, it makes it challenging to just stay on top of every single one of them. Like, every time we visit a bus stop, we make sure that what we have in database matches, uh, with the field conditions, um.

But when you have 80- 8600s and, you know, two, three people in your team getting to every single one of them every year, for example, ’cause that’s how quickly things can change, um, it’s challenging to stay on top of that data. Uh, luckily there is, you know, depending on what part of the system, there’s a lot of data out there from the jurisdictions and

MPOs we can, um, send refreshed dataset every now and then. So it’s, it’s, it’s a constant battle to, to really keep all of that, uh, as updated and as true to condition as we can. Yeah. And, and, uh, the one is what you can do within your resources.

Uh, sometimes if you have a contract in place for building, you know, sidewalks or if you- Mm-hmm. … have jurisdiction or not over a given area, uh, right-of-way or not, uh, but the coordination is, is, is very important. Could you tell us a little bit about the coordination with other jurisdictions, you know, uh, how critical it is or- Yeah. … any frustrations? It’s, uh, it, it really is the,

I think, the most efficient way to get to it, to get to good ADA, like, good accessibility and safety, uh, at bus stop is really working with the partners, um, in Atlanta. So MARTA, we have three counties and

35-plus cities that we work with, and all of them, like, I’ve seen tremendous improvement, um, in my 10 years at MARTA working with jurisdiction. I think we are, we are more aware of the needs of each other, understanding and, and helpful.

Um, we’re currently working on developing a set of, um, design standards, uh, like prop- like everybody’s got the, the national ones, your TCRPA reports and your NECTO guidelines, but we are, we’re working on making our own, um, so that we can distribute that to, to all the local jurisdiction, and this way they have kind of that little nice guide, and as they review, you know, maybe the planning department or permitting department, they can look at the, our guide and align what’s expected from the developers or their own projects, whether it’s a…… you know, new apartment building coming up from the- from the private sector that they have to permit, or, um, their own right-of-way project. They’re maybe doing a new complete street or just resurfacing, what- whatever that is, that they understand how- how the bus stop need to be designed so that it- it is useful and operable.

Um, we have a very interesting process in the- the- for our MPO, Metropolitan Planning Organization, here, which is called DRI. It’s, um, development of regional impact. Essentially what it is, is every time a developer is working on a parcel that, I forgot the exact size, but, like, basically will have a regional impact, like a large, large parcel.

Um, multiple stakeholders have to come at the table and review the concept and weigh in on their own expertise. So that has been really good for MARTA, where we- we just come in and, you know, we suggest things to make sure that the buses are not forgotten, uh, from that process. So that’s been great. And we do similar, a lot of planning departments around the- the area that we work with and created connections with this. They will send developers our way and say, “Hey, please go coordinate with

MARTA.” Um, “We need to make sure that that- that bus stop is not- not forgotten.” Um,

I can give you a few examples. For exam- like, often, we’d have developers building new apartment complexes, and they will have a nice strip of grass for the whole length of their parcel right against the curb. Sometimes it’s even fenced in to look extra fancy.

Um, the problem is, if the bus door is open on that little patch of green with may- maybe a little foot-tall fence, well, that is not accessible, right? And that’s just as simple as telling them, “Hey, here just, for five feet, pave this, connect it to the sidewalk in the back, and we’re good.” just

Um, it can be, “Hey, if- if you’d be so kind to give us, um, a pad for an amenity, now we can add a shelter and people will have, uh, a place to wait, uh, that’s a little more comfortable.”

So those are little things that- that we constantly look at and, um, and try to- to get ahead of. ‘Cause once it’s built, you know, realistically, nobody’s gonna touch it for probably decades. So we- we work hard at trying to get ahead of all those little developments here and there, and- and city plans and county plans, state plans. We- we work a lot with the DOT as well, uh, for the state.

So it’s- it’s always very interesting, and there’s always something going on. So thank you for- for sharing, uh, your- your experience with the coordination. Um, just wanted to say that, uh, it’s commendable that you guys actually put together some guides and push it to the different jurisdictions.

You spoke about, you know, over 30, uh, municipalities that you’re coordinating with. And transit planners constantly have that challenge, right? Like, you know, working with the, you know, planning departments and traffic, uh, or- or transit divisions, uh, of different municipalities and having them understand what you need as the transit system. Like, you know, what would be ideal for you? And then realizing that not everybody understands, you know, what are those requirements? How can they support you? And then when you do that, you actually go to them and tell them, “Hey, this is what we’re looking for.” And give them some guidelines and have that conversation. That’s how you end up having better bus stops. So, you know, that- that’s commendable. Um, uh, want to pass it to Levi for this section. We talk about accessibility to stops, a- and I think just, that we should talk a little bit more about the amenities.

Yeah. Thanks, Christian. Uh, you know, uh, amenities are- are tricky, because you’re adding additional equipment at the site, and with that additional equipment, that be- it makes the- the landing pad or, you know, the- the construction area quite a bit bigger, right? You- you’re going to need some extra space. And, uh, I know, Corentin, with- uh, with Atlanta, you- you’re probably pretty limited on a lot of space, uh, especially in your- your downtown areas.

But can you give our listeners a sense of what we’re looking at or what we should be looking at for accessibility of bus stop amenities? I- I think you mentioned one earlier, which is the- the shelter.

you know, people may not know that that gap in between the bench that’s inside the shelter and one of Uh, the walls is for a- an ADA accessible spot. So someone that’s in a wheelchair can wait there and not be in the elements. A- are there any other items like that that we should be looking out for? So that- that is one of the main one, um, that you mentioned, that- that 30 by 48 and just being able to, yeah, have a wheelchair under the shelter so that you can sit on the bench, use the bench. If you’re in a wheelchair, then you’re still protected.

Um, I think the most important with amenities I- and- and ADA is really, like you said, when you are working with very restricted right of way, I-

I think most planners know how hard it is to do any project where you need to talk about property agreements or- or acquisition to- to just gain the extra foot or two to- to build your project. So a lot of the time, you try to work within the existing margin to, you know, it- it’s a little easier, a little quicker if you can. And you- you can’t always.

Um, but what we found out, so MARTA recently completed last summer, um, our

1,000 amenities program where we installed 1,000 amenities over five years in- in the three counties. It was a mix of shelters, uh, benches, and then some more compact benches.

And what we found out is…… being strategic with the placement of the whole package. What, what I’m saying is you… So you have your shelter structure, you have your bench, there’s your bus stop pole, and then we also install trash cans.

And making sure that even, like, those three elements are not in the accessible route for pedestrians. Like, you can fit it, but you need to make sure that you have your, your, um, enough width, basically, uh, I think it’s 33 inches, if I remember correctly, from ADA, to, to get in and around and up and down the sidewalk, and that the trash can, the bench, and the pole, and all that don’t create obstacles along the way.

Um, so that’s been interesting, because if you’re not in a wheelchair, you’ve like, “Oh, I’ve got plenty of space here,” and trying to push on to, you know, the designers and contractors to make sure that all of this is looked at in the plans, so that when you build it, it works.

Um, we’ve, we’ve implemented some strategies such as, uh, narrow shelters. We’ve, we’ve bought different model shelters that fit in different spaces, so that instead of trying to get more right of way, we’re just gonna shrink the footprint of the shelter, like at least on the ground, um, the canopy staying the same, so that you are able to squeeze the same thing in, in, in a slightly smaller space. So we’ve, we’ve experimented with that. And

I think it comes down to, if you’re not trying to get more, again, right of way, to really have a tool, a toolbox of amenities that you can mix and match, uh, based on the condition that you have.

Um, and it’s not always possible, and then you decide, “Do we, do we move the bus stop up and down the, the sidewalk because the conditions are more favorable there? Is there a trade-off in doing that?” Sometimes it’s fine, it… Sometimes even better, uh, and sometimes you just can’t do it. And then that point, you decide,

“All right. How do we approach that one? Do we…” There’s a lot of needs across the system usually, so it’s like, “Do we look at another location that also has a similar need, maybe in an easier condition to deal with? Or but do you just try to, you know, work with your partners and, and get that right of way?”

So we, we’ve definitely experimented a lot with amenities and amenities combination at, at bus stops. So it sounds like you arrived at that toolbox, uh, with a lot of trial and error. Is that fair to say? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, uh, it is. And, uh, you know, if we were to do a-another, um, phase of that,

I would definitely probably try to expand the toolbox even more. Um, it’s, it’s just challenging. Like, beyond the right of way, sometimes you’ve…

Grading constraints, you know, you might have, like, a slight, like, a big drop-off behind your, your bus stop, and then you have to do a lot of groundwork to get a, a level, stable concrete pad, uh, for your amenity. That can be expensive. So it’s always trying to be as smart and…

as we can, spending, you know, the, the funds that we have for that program to, to get the most out of it, while still meeting all the federal requirements. So it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s ni- nice brain gymnastics for the designers and, and all of us in trying to, to see how we can fit every, every amenity in every spot.

A- and can you explain for our listeners… Uh, I’m sure some may already know, especially if they work in finance or in planning, but for others who may not have a sense of the economics behind a bus stop, can you walk us through maybe some different tiers of bus stops, and actually costs to how much it make sure that a bus stop is ADA compliant and it has, you know, either all the bells and whistles or somewhere in between? Mm-hmm.

I, I think that highly, highly depends on, you know, how many, uh, amenities you buy. I think that there’s certainly an economy of… Like, so there’s, there’s… Let’s break it down.

There’s really three components. Um, you have your design work, right? Um, that’s not the amenities per se, but y- there’s an amount of design that needs to happen.

So that, that’s got a price tag, and that’s depending on the contract that you have with engineering firms. Then you have your actual equipment.

That’s the shelter. That’s your trash can. That’s the glass that goes on the shelter, the bench, whatever you want to outfit with. And you can go, you know, is it an extra long shelter? Does it have digital screens? You, you can go probably as high as, as, as you want on, on that price tag.

Um, and then you have the groundwork. Um, how much earth d- do you need to move and, and concrete do you need to pour? Uh, and I think all of that can vary widely, but I would say, at least in our… down in, in the South where we are, um, you know, you might be looking at between, on the lower end, if you have the, the, a smaller amenities package, maybe

5 to 10,000 up to maybe $30,000, uh, for a more sturdier shelter. And you can go way, way higher than that with, with fancy BRT shelters, with screens, CCTV, all of that. Now we… You know. Again, you can go in six-digit easily there, depending on, on what type of investment you’re looking at.

So it’s, it’s not a nominal cost. There, there is considerable dollars that go into making sure that these bus stops are, as, as good as they can be.

I wanna go back… Absolutely. Uh, Yeah. I wanna go back to, uh, the accessibility, uh, for a moment- Mm-hmm. … especially in regards to the, your amenities at the stops. Mm-hmm. Are there, um, are there other elements that you’re considering too regarding accessibility? Like, um, you know, having some audio or audible notification about when a bus stop arrives or the height of the canopy on the shelter? Like, w- what, what is your eye-… looking for whenever you’re reviewing plans- Mm-hmm. … or you’re at the table with the stakeholders, and, you know- Right. … you’re giving your input? So, so we talked, uh, you know, about the, the access in and out of the amenities. As far as, uh, features, you have all, yeah, your vertical clearances under the canopy. Um, that’s definitely… usually it is not a problem ’cause people, like vendors of street furniture are well aware and, and their products are usually compliant.

Um, but there’s things like the, maybe the, the schedule. The- if you have a printed schedule in a case or a map of your system, those are things that can’t be too high, it can’t be ran too small, uh, so there’s a lot of that at- at- at its most basic, um, so we, we think about. And that’s more MARTA personally ’cause we install that, that equipment and, and that information.

we look at that. As far as So we, more technological improvement, I would say, I think there’s a desire to, to do more there. Um, we’ll see where that takes us. The, our first step was really, uh, catching up on the number of amenities with that 1,000. Um, I think the next stop, the next step will, is gonna take us even better and bigger. Uh, we certainly have, we’re soon to roll out some BRTs and ART, um, corridors, and those would have those type of enhanced features with real-time arrival screens and, and, and all the bells and whistles. So I think we, we’re gonna get our feet wet with, uh, higher frequency type of transit, higher tier of transit for those types of improvement, uh, very soon. And then after that, we’ll see what trickles down to our local, um, fixed routes.

It’s always a game of, um, ridership, so those, those ART, BRT you know, have more of a, a stronger case for the, for the even higher level of investment, right, than, than your local bus route.

So one acronym you mentioned there, I don’t know that I’m entirely familiar with. Uh, you, you said ART? Are, are- Yeah. … you referring to ar- articulated, or what’s the A for? Arterial

Rapid Transit. Um- Arterial, okay. … I think some people may b- may call it BRT, like, it’s, it’s, it, it’s a version of a BRT where you might not have as much dedicu- dedicated right away.

Um, it has some, but not as much, and it has a lot of the bells and whistles that you will see on a, on a BRT, Bus Rapid Transit.

So like light BRT? You could say that, uh, in some, some way. Uh, uh, so just kind of thinking about some of the other users of the road, um, you know, I know that there can be some conflicts with, uh, obviously the, your, your private autos that are also on the road. But, you know, there, there’s this whole other group of people, the, the cyclists, that, that need some of that space too.

uh, Um, can you speak to us about, like how you design a, a bus stop with some of those, th- those cyclists or, you know, the people who are, uh, you know, in some sort of wheeled device that they may be using the road. Mm-hmm. Um, how do you consider them when you’re planning a bus stop? That is a excellent question, um, and one that is, uh, very close to my heart ’cause I’ve been commuting on bike and transit for the past

10 years at this point. I probably put more miles on my bike than I do on my car, uh, so it’s always in the back of my mind when we look at bus stop plans, um, developments, you know, where are the bike lanes? And, and Atlanta has done, and the region’s done a lot recently to increase the, the size of its network for, for bike lanes. Um, we’ve worked recently with, with the DOT as well, who’s been putting bike lanes on their right of way.

So we, it’s, it’s always a game much similar to the amenities of, how do you fit competing needs in the same amount of space, right? You’re always looking at, um, the amount of right of way you have and you need your, your car lanes, you need your bike lane, you need your accessible sidewalk, and then you need your space for all your bus stops. So, um,

I’d say our stance is we always try to ask for the highest tier, you know, the, the best possible situation given the right of way available. And typically that would be, um, you know, some people call that a bus stop island, for example, uh, which is probably the gold standard there, where you have your, um, kind of bike lane that goes… You have your, your sidewalk, then you have your bike lane, then you have… Basically, the bike lane wraps around a bus stop boarding zone, and then you have your just regular traffic lanes.

Uh, that is expensive. That takes a lot of space, so it’s not always easy to accommodate that.

And, you know, jurisdiction, just like transit agencies are always facing financial struggle to, to get it all done, so it’s not al- the scope doesn’t always allow for that gold standard treatment, which we understand.

Um, other versions that we look at, which is interesting, kind of ties back a little bit to ADA, um, is the, the raised bike lane. I think that’s a very compact, interesting way, uh, when it makes sense, to, to accommodate for, for that. Essentially, you have, um, your typical sidewalk with your curb, and then you’d have your bike lane that runs between your traffic lane and, and the curb.

And as you get to the bus stop, you would raise that bike lane to the level of the sidewalk and then back down…. what that allows is the bus does- now doesn’t need to merge into a bi-plane to get to the sidewalk to serve it, uh, per ADA standards.

Um, so that, that avoids that conflict between buses and bikes.

Now you, potentially could introduce a conflict between pedestrians and bikes, but there’s plenty of design guidelines to, you to mitigate all of that, and

I think it’s a much safer environment where you have pedestrian and bikes fighting for the space rather than a bus and, and a bike. Um, so that’s kind of like a lower tier one, and that’s one that’s been discussed a lot with the recent adoption of PROWAG, where there was strong thoughts from the federal government of not allowing that step of mixed zone between bikes and pedestrians, so that would have kind of killed that raised bike lane, uh, design, which is very convenient to have, I would say, when you’re space constrained. And then on the lower end, what we typically ask when you can’t raise that bike lane, you know, there’s always drainage issues and costs associated with that as well, um, we’re looking at essentially if you have a physical separation between your bike lane and a travel lane as requesting that those, that physical separation, it could be bollards or whatever has been implemented, uh, is removed for a certain distance so that the bus can merge to the curb, let the people on and off, and then merge back into traffic.

This is not always ideal because, you know, the bus is sitting fully on the bike lane, uh, leaving the cyclist waiting behind. Some of them could try to go around the bus and squeeze between the other half lane that’s not blocked by the bus.

it works, you know, and then, then there’s a place for that as well, if it’s lower traffic, lower speed Um, roads, it…

fine most of the time. Um, but we cert- like at the beginning of the bike lanes in Atlanta and, and, and the three counties, it, it was interesting because you’d, uh, you’d see bike lanes pop up and all of a sudden we get calls from bus operators and like, “Hey, I’ve got someone in a wheelchair and there’s bollards. I can not get to the, to the sidewalk. How, like, do I just unfold my ADA ramp in the bike lane and then I’m blocking the bike lane with the ADA ramps?” And then. Just leave them in there and then they have to kind of find their way to the nearest, uh, street corner with a ramp?

So that was, uh, that was interesting. But we have good partners, so, you know, we would kind of coordinate it and be like, “Yeah, we can restripe that way, move those bollards,” and they’ll help us fix it.

but we’ve, Um, we’ve seen a lot of different cases, um, and then sometimes if you really can’t, um, do any of this, you know, there’s always what’s called a reasonable accommodation for ADA.

Essentially, you’re, you’re kind of leaving it to the operators to use their best judgment of safety and essentially it’s basically we give them wiggle room on how to best accommodate an ADA patron with the condition they’re facing. A lot of the time that just translates to the bus pulling forward maybe another 50, 60 feet where there’s a cross street which is safe enough to unfold, the ADA ramp and then let them off there. Um, um, that’s not something that we like to do ’cause there’s always a risk associated with that, but it, it is a provision that’s in ADA that’s, that’s useful in these type of, of situations. So it sounds like you have a lot of different groups, a lot of stakeholders that you’re, you’re trying to appease, right? You, you want to make sure that your, your bus riders and specifically those, those ones that are, uh, that are

ADA, th- they have access to the facilities that they need to be able to use the system. You’re thinking about the, the cyclist as well, you’re thinking about pedestrians who may not even be transit users who need to get around the, uh, the equipment or the amenity at the bus stop.

How, how do you prioritize which one of these things to tackle first? Like when you’re doing this 1,000 bus stop program, uh, where did you even get the 1,000 stops? Like, w- was it based on ridership or there were some, some other algorithm that you used? Mm-hmm. And then how did you take the next step to say, “Okay, this is what we need and where?” Yeah, good question.

Um, I mean, the, the good news is a- is a lot of users, but at l- in my eyes at least, th- it’s all one and the same because like I said, y- you’re a transit rider, you’re probably also a pedestrian to get to your bus, and you might be a cyclist as well. So

I, I don’t see it as a trade-off. I’m just trying to make the best of, of the situation every time for, for all, ‘c-

I assume you’re all three at the same time, essentially. Um, as far as prioritizing, you save a thousand, um, thousand seems like a lot, but

Christian was saying earlier he used to, you know, handle a 3,000, so yeah, a thousand out of 3,000, that’s a lot.

Thousand out of essentially almost 9,000, it’s more manageable. Um, the, the first thing we look at, and again, it’s mostly to make each investment worth it, right? We are, we, we have to be good steward of, of the funds that are given to us.

So ridership is number one. We need to make sure it’s utilized, and it, it’s interesting, I’ve had a lot of conversation with people who are, um, they might even be planners. They’re in the, in the public space and they don’t realize how bus routes work, where, you know, you, you take your route from home down to somewhere and then back, and, and bus stops usually work in pair for that reason, and most of the time only one of those two stop in that pair are where people get on and the other ones where people get off. At least in Atlanta we have a very radial system where the bus routes kind of fan out from the center out, so it is very…… very common to, to see that pattern, and they’re like, “Well, why isn’t there a, an amenity there?” I’m like, “The data says nobody ever waits there. They get off and then they walk wherever they need to be.” So number one, we look at ridership, make sure that there is actually activity there and people waiting. And we can drill down as far as, you know, trip-level ridership. So when you think about amenities, you have your average daily ridership. You might have,

I don’t know, 100 people a day let’s say. That’s, that’s a big number for us. So put- And for that ridership you’re using APCs? Correct. Uh, AP- APCs, yep. Yep, yep, yep. We have different mechanism, but the primary one’s a APC.

Um, so you might have 100 people a day, but h- how are those people spread out through the trips, right? Do we have a massive rush hour, um, stop where those 100 people are basically there over the span of 30 minutes in the morning and then there’s no activity for the rest of the day?

In that case, I can put a little shelter with two seats but you have, you know, 40 people who are still standing up, so is it a case of putting more seating or bigger shelters?

Um, and then you have the, the other stop that may have 40, 50 a day, but they have a consistent one, two people every trip waiting there. So we, you can drill down as much as you want to prioritize.

A good rule of thumb is looking at just the average daily ridership. That gives you a good idea of your usage through the day.

So the higher, the more likely you get to have a, an amenity. And then we, we pay close attention to what the bus stop is serving. Is it, uh, educational building? Is it a government building?

Is it a senior center, a health facility? E- essentially, those uses that attract people that are more likely to ride and need transit and make sure that they are covered, especially seniors and, you know, people with health difficulties potentially. They might, some of them might want to ride mobility but there’s, you know, it’s, there’s challenges with that. And if we can keep them on, um, on the fixed routes with a little bit easier and more frequent schedule, they, they usually enjoy that. So we, we look at line use around bus stops to make that selection. And then the third criteria that we look at is what we touched on quite a bit earlier, is do we even have the space there to put the MAE that’s required? Right?

Um, so we kind of balance those three needs and, uh, and select the locations. And then we…

the higher the ri- like, again, it’s all about the tools in your toolbox. You know, you have the compact bench, you have the full-size bench, and you have the shelter. So if you’re a really, really busy stop, you would get probably a shelter. It makes a lot more sense. If you’re a less busy stop but there’s still some interesting activity, you might just get a compact bench and that’s a lot easier to fit.

sometimes might be a busy stop with literally no room at all Um, and we’ll put a compact bench because that’s really the best we can do in that location at this time. Um, so it’s uh- L- let me ask a question right there. Uh, you know, as a, as a transit planner overseeing bus stops-

Mm-hmm. … and, uh, this is the case of a lot of transit planners- Right. … around the country, uh, also overseeing bus stops.

Y- you know, my experience is that you can only do as much as contracts you have in place. So if you have a contract or you, you know, you have an agreement for benches or for shelters and it’s this one shelter or this one bench and that’s all you have, then that’s all you have. And, of course, to make those work, there’s a cost and there’s some dimensions and there’s some restrictions.

Um, but then there’s like leaning rails and there’s like different shelter- Mm-hmm. … sizes and there’s different sitting- Mm-hmm. … um, you know, options out there. Uh, so my question to you is do you feel you have enough, uh, contracts in place or options in your toolbox, uh, I really like that toolbox analogy-

… but do you have a lot of those options when you’re tackling a shel- a, a, at a given bus stop to say, “Okay, this is limited space, so let me do a leaning rail and then I’m gonna do this and that-” Mm-hmm. … or do you think that you only have like those couple of options and then a lot of times you’re not able to work on that stop to, to do the enhancements you would like just because you don’t have the contractual instruments to make it happen? Mm-hmm. No, you’re, you’re right and that, that’s a great question.

the, the 1,000 amenity round that we did Um, was probably the largest in the authority’s history. Like before we started, just to give you an idea, I think we had about 800 amenities in the system, and that had been for decades, right? It built, it built up over decades and there was rounds of, of adding and, and updating before that, uh, but we picked it up at about 800 units and we added 1,000 over five years.

Uh, so that was a m- massive influx. For that effort, um… so it was kind of new for MARTA to experiment with what was needed for that program, so we had, like I said, compact bench, bench, and shelter, and then all the trash can and, and things that go o- of that nature. I think there was enough of a range in footprint that we were able to make it work.

And, and a, a critical thou- factor for us was because we were probably behind in where we should have been, we’re not anymore because we more than doubled, um, we had a lot of location to pick from. That made our effort a lot easier because if I had to do 1,000 all over again now, that would be a, that would be a much different story because we have tapped out, I would say, the low-hanging fruit, right? The ones where the h- ridership is high and the space is plenty…. that has gone for the most part. We’ve, we’ve tackled all of that with the thousand. So if I was gonna do it again, the numbers would look different and the toolbox would expand, uh, much, much wider, I think.

Um, I… the leaning rail, we, we had leaning rail before. Usually, it’s not… I don’t think we ever installed, like, just standalone leaning rails. They usually would come, we usually would put them in shelters in busy areas, so you could, you could still kinda lean, but you still have enough space under your shelter canopy to pack more people than if you had a full-sized bench.

Um, so we don’t necessarily have contracts with that. We can have a little bit of stock for those parts and we can just use ’em as needed.

Um, but you’re right. The, the next contract would, I think, would look different and be much more diversified in terms of, of amenities to, to be able to keep puzzling, uh, every bus stop with what they need. But then, uh, shelter-wise, just to confirm- Mm-hmm. … shelter-wise and bench-wise, uh, can you today do different shelter sizes or in that, you know, uh, thousand-bus-stop project- Yep. Yep. … did you have different shelter sizes as well? We just had two, two sizes.

We had, uh, kind of what I would call a, a regular full-size two-seater, uh, plus wheelchair, plus a bit of standing. Um, those would, like, usually fit on the 6 x 14 concrete pad, uh, and then you’d have a little bit of space for the, for the trash can.

And then we had the narrow profile, which I mentioned earlier, which offered the same canopy, but the footprint is about, I think, a foot narrower. Um, so we had two sizes of shelters, um, specifically for that program.

Again, if we did more, maybe we would look at a double-wide to cover more space, double-wide narrow. Uh, I mean, the, the world is your oyster. There’s a lot of custom options and modular products out there, uh, that we would definitely look into. Yeah. And, and, uh, you know, I like you mentioned that you guys tap out on your low-hanging fruit.

And, and I think that’s… for any agency, that’s the first thing to take a look at is- Mm-hmm. … and, and the question to ask when it comes to bus stop amenities and accessibility, is, did we tap out on our, uh, low-hanging fruit? You know, when there’s space- Yep. … and, and there’s all the right conditions for us to, you know, prioritize it, right? Like, if you barely have any boardings at a given bus stop, you know, we, we wanna bring accessibility and features to a many- to, to, to, you know, more bus stops, but maybe we don’t have to make the investment just yet.

Yep. Um, but, but I wanted to ask you, uh, now a little bit about signage. Mm-hmm. And, um, you know, there’s a lot of folks that are, uh, visually impaired and, and we talked a lot about, uh, uh, you know, wheelchairs, which has to do with the folks that have- Sure thing. … a mobility device.

Mm-hmm. Uh, so in the realm of signage, could you tell me about what are you doing to make sure it’s, is compliant with ADA and, you know, any other amenities, uh, that are related to signage? Uh, what are you guys doing on or working on to help with accessibility?

Um, Mm-hmm. so we ac- interestingly enough, we just, uh, finished recently our, our bus stop upgrade.

Um, and that’s the, the pole-mounted signage that you would typically expect to see. Um, so we went through that program where every 8,600 of ’em, we upgraded and we interest- we…

there was a lot of consideration for ADA, uh, as that was designed. For example, there’s a few things. So we added… we had braille before, but the braille plate would just say bus stop, if you were to, to read it.

Now, it says… it gives you the actual bus stop number, so that is specific to that location. So, if you’re visually impaired, you can read that, get the bus stop number, and then communicate that to customer service, to the operator, to whoever you need to communicate to, which will give a, a very precise location of where you’re at.

Um, that, I think, is hopefully a huge improvement for them- Wow. … compared to just saying just bus stop.

Um- I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve known of agencies using just the bus stop, right? Where it, where it reads bus stop-

Yeah. Yeah. … and that’s been just the, the information. That has to be very challenging to give a specific braille for each specific bus stop. Is this, is this something you guys already roll out, uh, to- Mm-hmm. … all your bus stops all have- Yes. … unique braille bus stop numbers? Correct.

Wow. That’s impressive. It, it, it’s, it’s been done, and, um, I think my facilities people probably, you know, are…

it’s, it’s challenging for them. I’ll say that. Uh, having… it’s essentially 8,600 braille plates.

unique And I don’t know that any… most people can’t read braille. So you’re looking at it, and you need to make sure that what is on that plate goes on that stop, uh, and you need to be able to manufacture that basically on demand, right? When it gets damaged, a car goes off the road and will take that pole down, you n- then maybe the plate gets damaged or lost, and then you need to replace it. So it’s definitely a, a maintenance challenge, but that’s one that, you know, we decided to take on, uh, ’cause we thought it was worth it. So I,

I really like that we’ve done that with the stops. The future would tell how all of that pans out, but so far, so far, it’s working, so I don’t see why it wouldn’t in the future.

Uh, another simple one that we looked at is, um, the clearance under the sign, depending on how your signs are, are…

all of that is described in Section 703, but whether your, your bus stop signage is centered on the pole-… or not. The- the- basically, it has to do with the ver- the lateral and vertical clearances of the signage. And the idea being if you have someone, again, perhaps is, um, visually impaired, you do not want them to basically hit their head on the signage as they’re trying to navigate the sidewalk.

So all of our signage are high enough that they, um… that we clear that. we were very mindful

And in the design that if we need to add routes, you know, that would expand the size of the sign, that it would still be the case. So that, that goes with putting poles that are tall enough that you know you can add routes to a certain extent and, um, and not go below that height.

Um, we even went a little bit… There was discussion to increase the, the vertical clearance a few years back, I think when we were designing the bus stops, so we went with even higher clearance than ADA requirements.

Is it- Is it seven feet required or nine feet? S- I believe it’s seven. We went with eight, uh, because I think there was a discussion back then to, to increase it at eight. They were like, well, if we’re doing that now and they’re about to vote something that would increase it, might as well just make it future-proof.

Um, so we’ve done that. And then we have some limited number of signs that have a crazy amount of routes, you know, double digits, because it’s a downtown, it’s a busy corridor.

For those ones, we have, uh, I’ll call that kick plates for like a better word, that exten- essentially span are- are raised and span the width of the sign so that if you have a cane, you just hit that plate at the bottom and know that there’s something above so you go around it.

Uh, so we- we’ve different stop tiers and we’ve, we’ve accounted for that, um, in the new design. so we have that,

Um, and then we also have, um, a little passenger information panel, as we call it, and it has your basic contact information for MARTA, you know, your, your customer service number, website.

Um, and then there’s also a QR code that you could scan. You punch in your bus stop number and it will tell you when, when the bus, uh, is coming. So if you’re visually impaired, somehow you know there’s a QR code, you could scan that, you could read it on the braille what the code is, put it in your phone, and then if you have some kinda audio translation, you, you could get when your bus is coming.

When that panel were made sure was, you know, at ADA heights, so if you are in a wheelchair, you could still access the information on that panel from your wheelchair.

Um- Uh, are your poles, uh, square poles- Yeah. … two-inch perforator or are they U-channel poles? They’re, they’re U-channels for the most part, except for the fancy ones I mentioned that have a kick plate. Those are, are custom square poles.

And en, that plate that you put at the, uh, uh, you know, halfway through the pole, how w- wide is it? Is it- is it quite narrow or- or is it- Uh, it’s- it’s fairly narrow, where it doesn’t really… wouldn’t trigger like the ADA, um, clearances. I think it’s six inches wide on a three-inch pole, if I remember.

Um, so it barely sticks out on the side of the pole. Um, yep.

So you’ve clearly put a lot of thought and effort into your bus stops, uh, you know, from amenities, ADA accessibility.

Y- you’re- you’re thinking about all these use cases and you’ve applied that now to over 1,000 stops you said. What comes next?

I know you have about 9,000 stops total, so is it just continuing this project or what do you foresee in the future, Corentin? S-… Uh, couple things. One that’s, uh, directly in, in, in my office here at MARTA, and another one that’s agency-wide, and both I’m very excited about.

Um, the- the first one is the not the launch but the implementation of our la-

Safe Routes to Transit program. That’s something we started, I started about a couple, couple years ago with my team, where essentially we recognized that, you know, the local jurisdictions, they have their own set of funding and priorities for any improvement in the public realm.

And they can’t get to every single bus stop for us. Uh, it’s a lot, and might not be what their metrics, or scope, or

KPIs, whatever they’re looking at directs them to. So we, we were fortunate that MAR- MARTA dedicated some, some funding for this program, and we are going to, uh, essentially improve over 190, uh, bus stops with… basically outfit them with safety and accessibility improvements.

Um, centrally for the most part, it’s going to be sidewalk, uh, ramps, some crosswalks, um, whatever the condition of that specific stops require. But, um… So I’m very excited to see the construction of this and seeing it come to life.

Think it’s gonna make a tremendous difference for our riders, and a, a much more enjoyable, comfortable, and safe experience.

Um, the, the second one, which, uh, is going full speed right now is our bus network redesign. Um, our service planning team has been working really hard at basically redesigning the fixed route network for MARTA, and, uh, we’re hoping to, to launch that effort very soon and we’ll have a brand new set of routes. Um, pretty sad, ’cause I’ll have to relearn all the numbers and all the routings that it took me so long to learn. 113 routes we have now.

Uh, but I’m- I’m excited about the, the prospect of, um, more efficient and, and more useful service that we’ll give to, to our customers.

It’s been a great conversation about ADA, uh, and bus stops and, and amenities. Uh, Corentin, thank you for sharing with us your experience. Uh, a few key takeaways from this conversation today.

First is everything starts with access to the bus stop. Uh, it’s important to have, uh, an organized process for assessing the accessibility at each one of your bus stops, uh, in your system, and this help us, uh, recognize low-hanging fruit. What are those areas where we have a good amount of boardings, uh, and maybe there’s, uh, ADA population that is riding from those bus stops that we could prioritize, uh, for low, uh, for

ADA improvements that are low-hanging fruit, right, that it has the right conditions for us to be able to improve it? Uh, the second one is, is you spoke about the coordination with the jurisdictions and the planning for, uh, accessibility, improvement, and even in put it in place new amenities. And, and also de challenges when sometimes we fall short in the coordination, uh, like in the example for the bike lanes and, you know, some of the separation, and then now providing challenges for buses.

Uh, and the, the, the third takeaway that I wrote down is, um, you know, improving and revising always your toolbox.

So have a toolbox of solu- solutions, or strategies, or even amenities that could help us improve those bus stops, uh, but always be looking at how you could improve your toolbox, uh, so you can tackle some of those that w- that are now so low-hanging fruit.

Is there any other, uh, key takeaways that you would like to add? I, I think

I want to keep it to those, to those few, because that, that r- really is the key right there, right? One, know what you have, so…

And that’s just the data. What, what’s the ADA condition of your stop so you know where your investment needs to go?

If you don’t know that, you’re gonna spend… You probably need to start with an inventory. Um, so, so that is absolutely right. Your… Tha- that’s key. Then the second one of the jurisdiction, same thing, very important. We’re all limited with funding, realistically, the bus stop needs are, are but usually very small in the scale of those other bigger public projects that are, or even private that are being built.

So if you can make that right connection at the right moment to get your little pad or your little ramp in to serve your bus stop better, you know, that… I think that’s a win. It really doesn’t cost a whole lot more to the person, and it, it saves the public. The…

It’s just better coordination overall, so that, that’s very important. I think you just… You, you nailed the… You, you just, you nailed it with your, your three, um, three takeaways. I, I, um,

I like it. Thank you. And thank you for being on, on Stop Requested, uh, and sharing your experience and, and your advice with our listeners.

Um, my last question is, where can our listeners learn more, uh, about MARTA’s initia- MARTA’s initiatives or get in touch with you?

Sure. Um, MARTA’s got a lot on its website. It’s marta.com. We have a lot of information about our service, about our capital program, all the, the cool projects we’re working on, including the bus network redesign. So it’s a great source of information, uh, over there for anybody who’s curious.

Uh, myself, I am on LinkedIn, like the, like most of us, Corentin Auge at MARTA. Um, there’s only one for now.

So, uh, I happy to… You know, if anybody wants to reach out and wants to nerd out on bus stop questions, uh, I, I’d love it. If you all want to send me, uh, your bus stop signage from your system,

I have a little collection going, so I take, uh… I’ll take that as well. Well, that, that’s an invitation to our listeners. If you have a bus stop sign that you want to share with Corentin, we would love to take it.

So thank you again, Corentin, and, and thank you our listeners for, uh, joining to another episode of Stop Requested. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.