CapMetro’s Road to Electrification with Zero Emissions Director, David Carr (Replay)

Stop Requested. Welcome to Stop Requested, the podcast where we discuss everything transit. I’m your co-host, Levi McCollum, director of operations at ETA Transit.

And I’m your co-host, Christian Londono, senior customer success manager at ETA Transit. Welcome to Stop Requested. Uh, today we have a very exciting episode. I’m very privileged to be speaking with, uh,

David Carr, who is the Director of Zero Emission Programs at, uh, CapMetro in Austin, Texas. David, thanks for joining us. Well, thank you for having me. So David, you know, I, I know that you’ve, uh, you work at, uh, CapMetro. You’ve obviously been very involved in, i- in their, uh, transition to zero-emission vehicles. Uh, can you give a bit of your background and, uh, let our listeners know how you, uh, came to this role as the Director of Zero Emission, uh, Program? Well, I’ve been in transit for about, um, since 2013. Uh, previous to that, I worked in higher ed and, um, I worked for the, a city. And so, I’ve been in fleet management, uh, pretty much my whole career. Um, working at the University of Washington, introduced electric vehicles there, uh, but they didn’t go over very well.

Um, worked at, uh, Duke University for a minute and then at, uh, RTC, Regional Trans- Transportation Commission of Washoe County. I was there in 2013, and we had some of the very first, uh, Proterra B35 electric vehicles.

So, I came into there and we had four of those buses, and I worked there for almost nine years. And, uh, then this opportunity came here in Austin and, um, you know, the scale… You know, in, in Reno we had a, a third of our fleet, about 25 vehicles was electric. Here, a third of our fleet is over 100 vehicles. So, um, it’s a, it’s a terrific opportunity and we’re introducing a lot of vehicles and it’s, uh, um, it, it’s pretty cool.

Yeah. It, it does sound very cool. I know there’s a lot of exciting projects happening at CapMetro and in, in Austin, you know, Texas, uh, generally, uh, there’s, there are a lot of cool things happening. Uh, but y- just to zero in on, on CapMetro and its commitment to sustainability, can, uh, can you give us some insight as to what those goals are and, you know, how far it’s come since you’ve been there? Well,

I think I, I’ve got the best job in the world. I’m working on, uh, electric vehicles and, uh, fleet electrification. I had a hydrogen pilot project that we’re getting ready to tee up for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle. Uh, we, we’ve since pushed that off a little bit, and I’ll touch on that later. Um,

I have a microgrid study that’s underway right now. We’re building a 4.35 megawatt solar array at North Ops, and, uh, we’re looking to use that energy, uh, for our facilities or for our buses. Uh, and I also have an autonomous project that I’m working on. It’s a bus

40-foot, um, New Flyer bus that’s, uh, basically one of our buses we took out of the fleet and then we put automation, bolt-on automation, and, uh, we are doing a demonstration of that in a couple of weeks. Um, so it’s pretty neat.

As far as the, the overall commitment to sustainability, you know, CapMetro has a, a target, uh, uh, a goal to be 100% zero emission by 2040, and to be completely carbon neutral by 2040. So, the fleet is probably 60% of our emissions. So it’s, uh, it’s really, uh, the, the main target. And in some ways it’s, it’s the easier target because, you know, vehicles are, you know, you buy vehicles and you can put them in service. Uh, but it’s also more challenging because the technology is different and we have to, you know, kind of transform our, our staffing, our maintenance, our, our knowledge in, in a way to where we can, uh, maintain and operate that type of a fleet. So, so far we’ve purchased, uh, 104 battery electric vehicles. We’ve built out infrastructure for about

200 chargers. Uh, we have en-route charging on two BRT lines that are expected to be completed in the end of 2025 and beginning of 2026. Um, right now the fleet is 104 battery electric buses. We have 92 new ones we just received. Uh, I think we received the last one couple, three weeks ago. And then we had 12 original battery electric buses. Um, and this all aligns with our sustainability vision plan for, uh, not only CapMetro’s fleet, but also the region.

I see. That, I mean, that’s just fascinating that you have so many projects happening simultaneously, and e- especially so many that are concentrated on su- your sustainability efforts. Uh, so what’s the, the overall fleet size of, as far as buses go for- We have, we have- … CapMetro? We have 415, uh, diesel buses, um-

Okay. … currently in the fleet. And now we just added the 104 battery electric, so… And we’re transitioning, obviously, those vehicles in and out, so. Uh, excellent. Uh, so that’s a pretty decent percentage of your vehicles then that are going to be, uh, completely electrically operated. I, I mean, I, I don’t know that there are that many programs out there that are as ambitious as yours. Uh, y- you know, what, what has been that impetus, uh, to this push for electrification? Is there, there anything happening there locally in Austin that is kind of informing what CapMetro does? Or is this just, uh, you know, maybe from the, the leadership at CapMetro? Well, leadership at

CapMetro, uh, prior to my arrival was really, really focused on, uh, uh, the broad, broader sustainably vision plan, but also, uh, Project Connect.And that had, uh, to do with rail, uh, transitory and in development, um, a lot of other things that we could use our position providing transportation in the community in a way that was, we could leverage that to, to have a, a broader impact on the community.

I see. Uh, and what has been this approach to your sustainability mission? I- is it been, “Let’s just replace them all as quickly as we can,” uh, all the diesel buses, that is, or is it more slow and methodical? Well, originally, there was a, a plan to purchase 200 battery electric vehicles, and then to replace the entire fleet probably by 2035. And, and, um, as we got… began exploring this area, putting vehicles into service, we began to realize there are a lot of limitations on these vehicles. They don’t go as far, they require a lot of charging and infrastructure, and, uh, there’s a lot of headwinds that we’ve encountered in terms of the political climate’s shifted, the, uh, workforce development plans take…

are taking longer. Um, I think the OEMs are struggling a little bit with their, uh, their vehicles, and they’re not, uh, as, probably as reliable as the old diesel buses were. And so we’re… The, the transition has been, um, a little bit, well, a lot bit more challenging than anyone anticipated, and so we’re kinda slowing that down. And, we’re going to be s- taking a pause at 104 vehicles. Uh, you know, that is still a pretty significant um, amount of our fleet, but we’re gonna get that, get that grounded and operate those vehicles, find where they fit, w- find the blocks of work that they work on, and then we’re gonna look at what’s, what we’re calling technology of choice. You know, what’s gonna be the best type of vehicle that’s coming down the, coming down, uh, out of the market in the future? Whether that’s a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, where we’re looking at doing a pilot, um, whether it’s, uh, they come up with new technology, solid state batteries, um, internal combustion engines that use hydrogen. There, there’s a lot of stuff that’s ha- was happening and emerging in the market, but it’s not quite ready for prime time. So, what we’re doing is we’re kinda slowing our roll. We’re finding and positioning ourselves to be, you know, take the battery fleet we have and, and really make it a firm foundation, uh, train our technicians and our operators how to operate that and optimize that use, and then we’re gonna use hybrid vehicles. So, that’s a combination of diesel and electric vehicle. And what we’ll do is that we’ll expand our fleet using those vehicles ’cause we’ll get, we’ll get some, um, better, uh, fuel economy, so we’ll save money. Uh, they’re, they’re proving to be very reliable vehicles, so we won’t have to worry about the impact on service. They’ll go anywhere that a, a diesel bus will go. Um, so we can really look at where we put… We can put them anywhere in our service area and have a really good, um, um, really good reliability and dependability. A- and because that’s really what it’s about. We have to provide great customer service. We have to be able to make pull out every morning. We have to… The buses have to be on time. They have to be frequent, and we have to do it in a way that it serves our, our customers. And so, the battery electric bus, as with all the promise it has, has not been able to do that quite as effectively and efficiently as a diesel bus. So, we are just managing those limitations of range and, and charging time, refueling time. And so we’re finding th- that niche for it, but we’re finding that that niche is not as big as we expected it to be. So, we’ll, we’ll carve out this niche. We’ll make it work. We’re gonna have a really successful deployment, I believe. Uh, but then we’re gonna use hybrids until that next generation of technology is, emerges, and then we’ll start to look at it in, in, in incremental, smaller incremental pieces, and, and take smaller bites from the apple. And, you know, if a hydrogen bus works, we’re gonna go down that path. If a, uh, some other technology emerges, we’re gonna look at it in small scale, and then if it works well, we’ll deploy it on a larger scale. I see. That makes a lot of sense. Uh, so how long do you anticipate this pause taking place? Is it something that’s going to be a couple year process or perhaps longer?

Are you just kinda waiting out the market to see what’s going to be available? Well, there’s… You know, like I mentioned, there’s, there’s been some changes, um, i- in, in the, you know, kind of the political climate. And so, we’re trying to, we’re trying to sort through that and, and see where things are going. Um, you know, it, it’s expensive, you know? We have a, uh, fiduciary duty to, you know, our citizens and our customers, and, you know, this technology is very, very expensive. So, you know, rather than taking a plunge and investing, you know, millions and millions of dollars, we’re gonna take a smaller bite, and we’re gonna look at and monitor the market closely. Uh, I think there’s gonna be a pause for a few years. I think we’re gonna… it’s gonna take us a minute, uh, to get our fleet kind of in order and get it in a, in a position where it’s, uh, working reliably and dependably on a day-to-day basis. And o- once we can achieve that, then we’re gonna start looking forward. Um, but, you know, it takes a couple years to order a bus. So, if I need buses, uh, in, in two years, I have to order them now. So, the, the, the timing’s always a little goofy with that because you, you wanna be able to, to, to plan ahead, but if you order a bus today, it’s gonna be obsolete by the time it’s delivered. So, we have to be mindful about our choices. And so taking a pause now, I think it’ll be a couple years. The hybrids will buy us that time because we’re gonna work with high voltage systems. So the, the technicians are still learning the high, high energy, high voltage, and battery powered systems. But we have the reliability of diesel to go with that. So, we feel we can… With, with th- that technology, we can make move… co- continue to move forward. We’re lowering our emissions footprint, but we’re also, you know, providing that, that bedrock, reliable, dependable service that we need to make pull out every day.

Awesome.How has the transition been with, uh, your technicians and your operators? Has there been any pushback, or has it just been folks embracing the technology and, and wanting more of it? I- is it somewhere in between? Well, there’s a paradox when you’re working on a fleet, uh, with diesel mechanics. Uh, they are really good at working on diesel buses. So if a diesel bus breaks, takes them four hours to fix it, and they fix two buses a day.

It’s a pretty, pretty good system. Mm-hmm. Uh, on an electric bus, we, we’re not really sure what’s wrong with it. The technicians that we’re getting from the OEMs, they’re not really sure what’s going on. And so they may take a bus, and it might take two or three days to figure out what’s wrong with it, and then another couple days to fix it. Well, you know, are you gonna fix, you know, four or five buses, diesel buses, and put them in service? Or are you gonna work, fix one bus and other buses are now being sidelined? Uh, and the fact that these buses are covered by a warranty, you have the OEM technicians here fixing the buses, so why are we gonna work on them? We have these guys fixing them under warranty. And then when the warranty expires in two years, we, we haven’t really learned a lot about them, and they’re, they’re, and then we’re, they’re thrust upon us and we have to try figuring it out from scratch. So, I think there’s a, there’s a, a, some foundational hurdles, structural hurdles that we have to overcome, and there has to be a way for us to learn about the technology, find a way to get proficient at it, and then, and… Because if you train them today, our technicians today on battery electric buses, and they don’t work on them for two years, well, that, that, that training’s kind of wasted. Now, what we’ve done is we’ve developed what we call a hotshot program. So we have some technicians that are assigned to work on just the battery electric buses. And so those guys are the, the seed, right? They’re gonna learn how to do this, they’re gonna be the ones that are gonna mentor to the other technicians, and we’re gonna create an environment where being a, a high voltage battery electric bus technician is, is, um, supported and fostered, and they’re gonna work with OEM technicians, and then we’re gonna hopefully establish a, a pretty solid, um, uh, basis as knowledge so that going forward, we’ll be able to fix these buses and maintain these buses as well as our other buses. Right. It sounds like you have a, a pretty good plan in place then. Uh, i- and clearly it, it takes more than just your, your operators, your technicians, your administrative staff. You also have to have the broader community involved in, in this transition, I’m sure. Uh, you know, how have the municipalities, like the, the City of

Austin and, uh, perhaps others, your energy provider, uh, how have, how instrumental have they been in this transition thus far? Well, I think they’re supportive. Uh, City of Austin is really… I, I talk to them frequently. I’m presenting to them tomorrow or Wednesday, uh, to, uh, what our, um, current status of our fleet is. Um, generally, the, the region is very, very supportive of this.

Austin Energy, um, really has been… They’ve been s- while they’ve been very, very supportive, they really don’t know any more than we knew about it when we started. So we’re coming to them saying, “Well, we need you to help us.” And they say, “Well, what do you need?” We say, “Well, we’re not sure. Can you tell us?” And they’re not s- So we’re really not in the best spot with them,

’cause we’re, we, we need to have a, a way to have our energy rates and tariffs aligned with what our mission is. And we’re just getting wha- uh, a general commercial rate. So if I have a building and I have it on, that’s the rate they’re charging me. Well, fuel… Using electricity for fuel is different than using electricity for a building.

And so our charging duty cycles are different, so we’re working this, through this kind of together, and we meet with them rather frequently on our capital projects and our construction, so we’re putting our transformer switchgear in and we’re working with them very, very well. And they’re very, very supportive. But as far as the energy rate, how much we have to pay for the energy, how we consume the energy, that’s a new field for e- for all of us, and we’re kind of muddling through that a little bit. Um, the FTA has been awesome. They, they are our champion, they are the ones kind of leading this in a lot of ways. Uh, I, I work with FTA on a couple of projects. Um, the, the funding that we get from the FTA is critical. You know, we couldn’t move down this path without that. Um, their staff is, um, you know, the staff that I work with directly are, are really wonderful people and they, we’re doing a really good job in supporting us and, um,

I, I think that, uh, you know, all three, Austin Energy, City of Austin, FTA have done a really great job in supporting us and, uh, helping us advance to where we are today.

Oh, that’s great to hear. Are there any other key partnerships that you have in the area, uh, you know, perhaps with some nonprofits or, or, uh, others that you could let our listeners know about? And maybe this could give them some ideas about, you know, how they can further engage their community when they’re making this transition. Well, the, the key is your utility provider. You have to have a great rapport with them, and then you have to educate them, ’cause they, they don’t know anything about electric vehicles and, any more than we do, uh, at this scale. Because you know, uh, a battery electric bus has 660 kilowatts onboard. It, it charges, uh, overnight, and um, you know, we have ch- uh, we’ll have charging capa- capability between 60 kilowatts to 450 kilowatts. And so that’s a lot of energy, and it’s a lot of, uh, uh, re- a lot of energy for fuel. Our, our other partners here are our OEMs, the, the original equipment manufacturers.

Uh, we rely on them for the training and for the knowledge, obviously, for the equipment, for tools and support. Um, on one hand, uh, well, we work with New Flyer, and they’ve done a really fantastic job, they’re providing a lot of resources, and they’re really doing their best to keep our buses up and running and operate on a, uh, a high level of efficiency. Um,

I don’t know if you’ve heard, but Proterra, the buses, we bought 40 of them, uh, they went bankrupt. Yes. So that was a tremendous impact to the industry, and really, I think is a pretty, uh, dramatic setback to the industry as a whole, and to us as an agency. Uh, the- the company that’s acquired them, uh, Phoenix Motorcars, they’re struggling to get their footing, and they’re not able to provide the same level of service. And, uh, we’re hoping that they’re able to- to kind of come around and- and- and get that footing. But right now, we’re not really seeing a lot of support, because I- I- I think their resources are just not on the level as a- a New Flyer or the Proterra was originally. Um, some of our other partners, Camber. Camber was spun off from Proterra. Um, Camber is the- the charger, um, uh, portion of that. And so they built our South Ops chargers. We have two 1.44 megawatt chargers with 48 dispensers.

Uh, those chargers are working really well, and they’re charging our New Flyer and our Proterra buses. Uh, Holt Renewables, they’re working on our, uh, North Ops space, where we’re gonna have the 4.35 megawatt solar array, plus

30 chargers and 90 pantographs. So this’ll be one of the largest pantograph deployments in the US, and, uh, they’re doing a really good job on putting that together, and we’ll see that by the end of 2025, beginning of 2026. Um, some other partners, uh, take a Westinghouse. They’ve, uh, supported us on some of the chargers. Um, um, and so they’ve been re- And then our consultants, you know, there’s several consultants we work with, and they bring a, uh, a really unique value in that they have, uh, industry experts, uh, subject matter, uh, experts that help us. Uh, I’ve been doing this since the inception of electric vehicles in 2013, so

I consider myself a subject matter expert, and sometimes we argue. And actually, um… But they’re very good, they’re very supportive, and, uh, and- and using those firms to help us has been, uh, been invaluable. As far as, uh, workforce development, um, we really worked with the OEMs, but we’re looking at a couple of things where we wanna develop our own, somewhat like an academy, where we’re gonna, uh, create a- a training, um, curriculum where all the technicians and everyone, all the operators get trained on battery electric vehicles. Um, and so we have a basic level of training, you know, don’t cut the orange wires, uh, and how to operate an electric vehicle to be the most fuel efficient. So we’re- we’re developing those train, we’re training the trainers, we’re developing those materials, and we’ll be able to implement that in a way that gives us a solid, um, orientation and a way to get started. But as far as going to the next levels of training, level one, level two, level three, um, we’re- we’re trying to sort that out a little bit. We- we- I’ve talked to, uh, ACC. Uh, I’ve looked at other, uh, training materials, other, uh, um, different institutes and such. So we’re looking abr- uh, uh, kind of casting about trying to find a- a good partner to be able to develop that. Um, I think it’s important that we have a hands-on training component. Uh, we just hired a training specialist that’s going to be help develop the curriculum and develop the training program, and really, that’s gonna be a big hands-on element. So the- the critical point there for workforce development, I think, is- is hands-on training, uh, but also that training the trainer and- and learning ourselves that and tying it back to those hotshots so we have this- this, you know, fundamental, uh, knowledge base, so that as we go forward, we’ll be able to build on that, and any new technology we get, we’ll be able to be more flexible and adaptable to be able to implement that.

Uh, j- just to follow up there on that ACC, that’s Austin Community College, is that right? Mm-hmm. Yes. Oh, okay. Okay. Just wanted to make sure to get that clarification for our listeners. Uh, there was something that you mentioned earlier, David, uh, that I want to go back to. Uh, Project Connect. I- can you give us just a- a brief description of- of what that is, and, you know, why that even came to be at CapMetro? It’s really about, uh, making the communities more sustainable. We’re leve- we’re leveraging transit resources to enhance sustainability, connectivity, and access to opportunities. Um, not only, uh, opportunities, but the jobs and to education and to, uh, you know, other social resources, whether it’s health, um, social services, um, even just things like libraries and stuff. So that connectivity is- is critical and at the core of what we’re doing, but also creating deliverable spaces, um, and then, uh, especially in historically disinvested communities in the region. Excellent. Thanks for that. Uh, y- you know, I- I wanna kind of wrap up our- our conversation and talk about some of the- the challenges that- that you’ve faced. Uh, it sounds like, you know, on the outside, things are going pretty smoothly, but

I know having worked at an agency that, you know, you always hit some hurdles. And y- you mentioned the example of Proterra, uh, you know, uh, filing for bankruptcy. I know that was a huge hit. Are there any other challenges or concerns that kind of keep you up at night? Uh, Levi, I think there’s, um, there’s a belief that, um, like, well, the way I explain it is, like, the bus is the easy part. You know, is, you can order a bus, you can buy it, and it’s delivered. That- that’s the easy part. The infrastructure, the workforce development, the operational, uh, integration, all that presents challenges that- that- that are new to us. You know, the diesel technology’s been around a long time. And so, you know, our technicians are well versed in it. Our operators know how to drive diesel buses. So suddenly, we’re asking them to, you know, drive the bus differently, try not to use as much energy, use the regeneration capabilities of the bus and- and make it more efficient. We’re asking, uh, our technicians to plug in a laptop and look at the diagnostics, look at- look at codes and look at, uh, you know, other data and assimilate what is it that- that- that this vehicle might need. And- and so those are- those are, uh-… you know, from that the educational challenges. But just the infrastructure, building chargers, um, getting the, uh, you know, transformers, switch gear, all that stuff built, um, you know, none of it happens quickly or overnight. And then once we have that technology, now it’s like, how do we maintain this? How do we operate this? How do we do this in a way… How do we use the energy in a way that’s cost-effective? Because if you park all your buses in exactly the same time and charge them all at the maximum capability, you’re gonna get a big electric bill.

So, so, how do we do that? How do we… You know, we learn about how electric rates are developed and, and, and, and, uh, billed, and we say, “Well, maybe we don’t charge them all at the same time.” Maybe we spread that out, and we, we reduce that peak over a period of time, or use software or other, uh, things to make it so we can manage that better. So we’re- from going from a diesel bus where you just put the nozzle in and fill it up, to being almost energy managers. We’re, we’re managing the amount of energy we’re using. Um… I, I see.

So is there, is there a specific software that you’re using right now to be able to manage this energy and make sure that when you go to charge, you, you know, a portion of your vehicles, that you’re, you’re not going to be hit with such a huge electricity bill, or is that part of the ecosystem that is yet to be fully developed?

I, I think the latter. I think we, we’re really… We have software that’s resident on our equipment, so we have bus software, we have charger software. The thing is, we have, you know, nine different kinds of buses and seven different kinds of chargers. And so, there’s, there’s no one pane of glass that… to look at all this, and, and, and to try to come up with a way to integrate that.

And then we’re also looking at our building management systems and our other things, in terms of being more sustainable. So, now we’re looking at, uh, with our electric microgrid, um, facilities building management systems, our charger management systems, our bus telemetry. We have a whole new arena of technology, software, and i- it’s really, um, it’s intriguing. I’ve been working with our… We have an analyst that’s, uh, dedicated to help us to look at our vehicle performance, look at our charger, uh, performance, and, and lo- trying to find a way that we can optimize this without impacting, uh, operations, ’cause that’s really the key, you know. It doesn’t matter how much…

how we do it, as long as the buses all make pull out, and as long as they operate efficiently and effectively, that’s what we want to get to. But behind the scenes, there’s ways to do that in a way that doesn’t cost as much. There’s ways to monitor it and manage it in a way that’s… it’s unique, and, and will enhance the way we deliver maintenance, and, um, we can be more efficient, and we can put…

optimize where these vehicles are operating and how they’re being operated. And then in… on the energy side, really, if we can utilize all these resources in a way that lowers our carbon footprint overall, it makes for a much better agency than just diesel buses driving around all the time.

Right, right, completely understandable. And, and Christian and I have had, uh, similar conversations on the Stop Requested podcast about, you, you know, some of the potential drawbacks of electric vehicles, in the sense that, you, you know, you don’t want to, uh, offer the electric vehicles at the expense of frequency on a route, you know. If you’ve got

20-minute headway and you have to go to 30-minute headway because of, you know, charging restraints or, uh, you know, things like that, then you’re, you’re actually hurting the folks that you’re trying to serve. Well, I,

I agree with that to some extent, but, you know, the… I think the best form of transportation, in terms of sustainability, is, is a bus. You know- Yes. … if you can put 30, 40, 60, 100 people on a bus, that’s 30, 40, 60, 100 cars that are not on the road. So, it doesn’t really matter what we’re fueling them with, because that, that’s inherently more, um, sustainable. Now, when we add electric buses there, or a hydrogen bus, or, or any other technology, yeah, there’s… there is that, but at the same time, what… for example, on our BRT routes, we’re gonna… when that’s fully built out, we’re gonna have, uh,

450 kilowatt chargers, uh, at end of line. So, the bus will go out and it’ll drive on the route. When it comes back, it’ll charge for 15, 20 minutes. It’ll pick up, you know, a, a 10, 20, 30% state of charge, and be able to take the lap again. And over the course of the day, it can, it can operate indefinitely with that type of, uh, configuration. So, there’s ways you can do this that doesn’t affect in-… uh, headways, and doesn’t impact that, as long as you have the infrastructure to support it. And that’s where it gets complicated, how much charging do you need where, how long does it need to charge, and then how many buses do because you need? So, it, it becomes maybe less… It be- it becomes less than a, a, a simple arithmic- arithmetic equation, and because it becomes a, a, a algorithm, you have to start looking at, well, what are all the… what are all the different variables and what are all the different, uh, calculations we have to do in, in such a way to make this work? All right. Are there any, uh, other pieces of advice that you can offer, uh, some of our listeners who perhaps are working at transit agencies? Well, I, I think that you want to explore it. You want to see if it fits in your application. I think there’s opportunities to reduce your emissions.

That doesn’t mean you have to go full electric, but there are certainly things you can do to, for you to improve your efficiency and, uh, how you operate. Um, I think that, um… You know, I wo- I worked in a smaller agency, so we went small. We had four buses, you know, and then we got 17 buses, you know. And so, it… Don’t… I, I, I think that if you go big, it’s… uh, it, it… there’s big problem, you know. I think if you can find incremental ways to start, you can, you can find a niche that it works in… Our first four buses in Reno went on a six-mile circular downtown, and, and they’d g-… The buses’ range was like 35 miles, yet we operated that circulator for several years. It was working fine, uh, but we had en-route charging.

So, the technology that we used and the, the application we had fit the, the duty cycle that we had. And so, when we had that, it was a good opportunity. But if you’re a smaller agency or a rural area, your, your, your distances are so long, and, uh, the margin for, uh, error is greater, in terms of… I mean, the, the equipment reliability and such, you really need to have dependable vehicles. So… And not to say that these aren’t dependable, they’re just… they’ve proven to be more problematic and they’re harder to repair. You have to, you have… There’s a whole learning curve to it. And, and so there’s a lot more to it than, you know, the, the basic diesel technology. So,

I, I, I would go small. I would go, you know, very… be very aware of your duty cycle, and, and, and just see if you can, you can find that niche. And then, and then if, if that’s successful and it’s working, then you move forward from there. But, but baby steps. Crawl before you walk and walk before you run. Uh, that’s great advice, and that really applies to a lot of things in life, right?

Yeah. Start small. Uh, I, I think sometimes we can, uh, get in a little bit over our head, you know, over our skis a bit, and, uh, that can come back to bite us. So, that, that is, uh, uh, really good advice. And David, I want to say, I really appreciate this conversation, e- for you agreeing to come on. Uh, it’s been, uh, really an excellent 30 minutes here. So, thank you so much. Well, thank you, Levi. I really appreciate the opportunity. All right. And thank you to all of our listeners. Uh, we will be back next week with another episode of

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