CapMetro’s Road to Electrification with Zero Emissions Director, David Carr

00:00 Stop Requested.

00:01 Levi McCollum: Welcome to Stop Requested, the podcast where we discuss everything transit.

00:05 Levi McCollum: I’m your co host Levi McCollum, director of operations at ETA Transit.

00:10 Christian Londono: And I’m your co host Christian Londono, Senior customer Success Manager at ETA Transit.

00:20 Levi McCollum: Welcome to Stop Requested. Today we have a very exciting episode.

00:25 Levi McCollum: I I’m very privileged to be speaking with David Carr, who is the director of zero emission Programs at Cap

00:33 Levi McCollum: Metro in Austin, Texas. David, thanks for joining us.

00:37 David Carr: Well, thank you for having me.

00:39 Levi McCollum: So David, I know that you work at Cap Metro.

00:44 Levi McCollum: You’ve obviously been very involved in their transition to zero emission vehicles.

00:51 Levi McCollum: Can you give a bit of your background in let our listeners know how you came to this role as

00:57 Levi McCollum: the director of zero emission program?

01:00 David Carr: Well, I’ve been in transit for about since 2013.

01:05 David Carr: Previous to that I worked in higher ed and I worked for a city and so I’ve been in fleet

01:12 David Carr: management pretty much my whole career.

01:16 David Carr: Working at the University of Washington.

01:18 David Carr: Introduced electric vehicles there, but they didn’t go over very well.

01:23 David Carr: Worked at Duke University for a minute and then at rtc, Regional Transportation Commission of Washoe County.

01:32 David Carr: I was there in 2013 and we had some of the very first Proterra BE35 electric vehicles.

01:39 David Carr: So I came into there and we had four of those buses and I worked there for almost nine years.

01:45 David Carr: And then this opportunity came here in Austin and you know, the scale, you know, in Reno we had a

01:53 David Carr: third of our fleet, about 25 vehicles was electric.

01:55 David Carr: Here, a third of our fleet is over 100 vehicles.

01:59 David Carr: So it’s a terrific opportunity and we’re introducing a lot of vehicles and it’s, it’s pretty cool.

02:08 Levi McCollum: Yeah, it does sound very cool.

02:10 Levi McCollum: I know there’s a lot of exciting projects happening at Cap Metro and in Austin.

02:15 Levi McCollum: You know, Texas generally there are a lot of cool things happening.

02:20 Levi McCollum: But just to zero in on Cap Metro and its commitment to sustainability, can you give us some insight as

02:26 Levi McCollum: to what those goals are and how far it’s come since you’ve been there?

02:32 David Carr: Well, I think I’ve got the best job in the world.

02:35 David Carr: I’m working on electric vehicles and fleet electrification.

02:40 David Carr: I had a hydrogen pilot project that we’re getting ready to t up for a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle.

02:45 David Carr: We’ve since pushed that off a little bit and I’ll touch on that later.

02:49 David Carr: I have a micro grid study that’s underway right now we’re building a 4.35 megawatt solar array at Northops and

02:58 David Carr: we’re looking to use that energy for our facilities or for our Buses and I also have an autonomous bus

03:05 David Carr: project that I’m working on. It’s a 40 foot new flyer bus.

03:11 David Carr: That’s basically one of our buses we took out of the fleet and we put automation bolt on automation and

03:17 David Carr: we are doing a demonstration of that in a couple of weeks.

03:20 David Carr: So it’s pretty neat as far as the overall commitment to sustainability.

03:25 David Carr: You know, Cap Metro has a target, a goal to be 100% zero emission by 2040 and to be completely

03:32 David Carr: carbon neutral by 2040. So the fleet is probably 60% of our emissions.

03:40 David Carr: So it’s really the main target and in some ways it’s the easier target because, you know, vehicles are, you

03:47 David Carr: know, you can buy vehicles and you can put them in service, but it’s also more challenging because the technology

03:52 David Carr: is different and we have to, you know, kind of transform our, our staffing, our maintenance, our knowledge in a

04:03 David Carr: way to where we can maintain and operate that type of a fleet.

04:08 David Carr: So so far we’ve purchased 104 battery electric vehicles.

04:11 David Carr: We’ve built out infrastructure for about 200 chargers.

04:16 David Carr: We have in route charging two BRT lines that are expected to be completed in 2025 and beginning of 2026.

04:26 David Carr: Right now the fleet is 104 battery electric buses.

04:30 David Carr: We have 92 new ones. We just received, I think we received the Last one couple three weeks ago and

04:35 David Carr: then we had 12 original battery electric buses.

04:40 David Carr: And this all aligns with our sustainability vision plan for not only Cap Metro’s fleet, but also the region.

04:50 Levi McCollum: I see that. I mean, that’s just fascinating that you have so many projects happening simultaneously and especially so many

04:57 Levi McCollum: that are concentrated on your sustainability efforts.

05:01 Levi McCollum: So what’s the overall fleet size as far as buses go?

05:06 David Carr: For Cap Metro, we have 415 diesel buses currently in the fleet and now we just added 104 battery electric.

05:15 David Carr: So. And we’re transitioning obviously those vehicles in and out.

05:18 David Carr: So.

05:20 Levi McCollum: Excellent. So that’s a pretty decent percentage of your vehicle vehicles then that are going to be completely electrically operated.

05:29 Levi McCollum: I mean, I don’t know that there are that many programs out there that are as ambitious as yours.

05:36 Levi McCollum: What has been that impetus to this push for electrification? Is there anything happening there locally in Austin that is

05:44 Levi McCollum: kind of informing what Cat Metro does? Or is this just maybe from the leadership at Cap Metro?

05:52 David Carr: Well, leadership at Cap Metro prior to my arrival was really focused on the broader sustainability vision plan, but also

06:03 David Carr: Project Connect and that had to do with rail Transit Oriented Development, a lot of other things that we could

06:13 David Carr: use our position providing transportation in the community in a way that was we could leverage that to have a

06:21 David Carr: broader impact on the community.

06:25 Levi McCollum: I see. And what has been this approach to your sustainability mission? Is it been let’s just replace them all

06:35 Levi McCollum: as quickly as we can, all the diesel buses that is, or is it more slow and methodical?

06:42 David Carr: Well, originally there was a Plan to purchase 200 battery electric vehicles and then to replace the entire fleet probably

06:48 David Carr: by 2035. And as we began exploring this area, putting vehicles into service, we began to realize there’s a lot

06:58 David Carr: of limitations on these vehicles. They don’t go as far.

07:01 David Carr: They require a lot of charging and infrastructure and there’s a lot of headwinds that we’ve encountered in terms of

07:09 David Carr: the political climate shifted. The workforce development plans are taking longer.

07:16 David Carr: I think the OEMs are struggling a little bit with their vehicles and they’re not as probably as reliable as

07:24 David Carr: the old diesel buses were. And so the transition has been a little bit, a lot, bit more challenging than

07:32 David Carr: anyone anticipated. And so we’re kind of slowing that down.

07:35 David Carr: And we’re going to be taking a pause at 104vehicles.

07:41 David Carr: This is still a pretty significant amount of our fleet, but we’re going to get that grounded and operate those

07:47 David Carr: vehicles, find where they fit, find the blocks of work that they work on, and then we’re going to look

07:51 David Carr: at what’s, what we’re calling technology of choice.

07:54 David Carr: You know, what’s going to be the best type of vehicle that’s coming down the coming down out of the

07:59 David Carr: market in the future. Whether that’s a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, we’re looking at doing a pilot, whether it’s they

08:05 David Carr: come up with new technology, solid state batteries, internal combustion engines that use hydrogen.

08:11 David Carr: There’s a lot of stuff that was happening and emerging in the market, but it’s not quite ready for primetime.

08:16 David Carr: So what we’re doing is we’ kind of slow in our role.

08:19 David Carr: We’re finding a positioning ourselves to be, you know, take the battery fleet we have and really make it a

08:24 David Carr: firm foundation, train our technicians and our operators how to operate that and optimize that use.

08:31 David Carr: And then we’re going to use hybrid vehicles.

08:33 David Carr: So that’s a combination of diesel and electric vehicle.

08:36 David Carr: And what we’ll do is we’ll expand our fleet using those vehicles because we’ll get, we’ll get some better fuel

08:44 David Carr: economy, so we’ll save money. They’re proving to be very reliable vehicles so we won’t have to worry about the

08:49 David Carr: impact on service. They’ll go anywhere that a diesel bus will go.

08:55 David Carr: So we can really look at where we put, we can put them anywhere in our service area and have

08:59 David Carr: a really good, really good reliability and dependability.

09:05 David Carr: And because that’s really what it’s about, we have to provide great customer service.

09:08 David Carr: We have to be able to make pull out every morning.

09:10 David Carr: We have the buses have to be on time, they have to be frequent and we have to do it

09:14 David Carr: in a way that it serves our customers.

09:17 David Carr: And so the battery electric bus, with all the promise it has, has not been to do that quite as

09:22 David Carr: effectively and efficiently as a diesel bus.

09:25 David Carr: So we are just managing those limitations of range and charging time, refueling time.

09:32 David Carr: And so we’re finding that niche for it, but we’re finding that that niche is not as big as we

09:37 David Carr: expected it to be. So we’ll carve out this niche, we’ll make it work.

09:41 David Carr: We’re going to have a really successful deployment, I believe, but then we’re going to use hybrids until that next

09:46 David Carr: generation of technology is emerges and then we’ll start to look at it in incremental, smaller incremental pieces and take

09:54 David Carr: smaller bites from the apple. And you know, if a hydrogen bus works, we’re going to go down that path.

09:58 David Carr: If some other technology emerges, we’re going to look at it in the small scale and then if it works

10:04 David Carr: well, we’ll deploy it on a larger scale.

10:07 Levi McCollum: I see. That makes a lot of sense.

10:08 Levi McCollum: So how long do you anticipate this pause taking place? Is it something that’s going to be a couple of

10:14 Levi McCollum: year process or perhaps longer? Are you just kind of waiting out the market to see what’s going to be

10:19 Levi McCollum: available?

10:20 David Carr: Well, there’s, you know, like I mentioned, there’s, there’s been some changes in the, you know, kind of the political

10:27 David Carr: climate. And so we’re trying to, we’re trying to sort through that and, and see where things are going.

10:33 David Carr: You know, it’s expensive. You know, we have a fiduciary duty to, you know, our citizens and our customers.

10:41 David Carr: And you know, this technology is very, very expensive.

10:43 David Carr: So, you know, rather than taking a plunge and investing, you know, millions and millions of dollars, we’re going to

10:49 David Carr: take a smaller bite and we’re going to look at, monitor the market closely.

10:54 David Carr: I think there’s going to be a pause for a few years.

10:56 David Carr: I think we’re going to, it’s going to take us a minute to get our fleet kind of in order

11:01 David Carr: and get it in a position where it’s working reliably independently on a day to day basis.

11:08 David Carr: And once we can achieve that, then we’re going to start looking forward.

11:12 David Carr: But you know, it takes a couple of years to order a bus.

11:15 David Carr: So if I need buses in two years, I have to order them now.

11:20 David Carr: So the timing is always a little goofy with that because you want to be able to plan ahead.

11:27 David Carr: But if you order a bus today, it’s going to be obsolete by the time it’s delivered.

11:31 David Carr: So we have to be mindful about our choices.

11:34 David Carr: And so taking a pause now, I think it’ll be a couple of years.

11:37 David Carr: The hybrids will buy us that time because we’re going to work with high voltage systems.

11:41 David Carr: So the technicians are still learning the high, high energy, high voltage and battery powered system.

11:46 David Carr: But we have the reliability of diesel to go with that.

11:49 David Carr: So we feel we can, with that technology, we can make move, continue to move forward.

11:54 David Carr: We’re lowering our emissions footprint, but we’re also providing that, that bedrock, reliable, dependable service that we need to make

12:03 David Carr: full out every day.

12:06 Levi McCollum: How has the transition been with your technicians and your operators? Has there been any pushback or has it just

12:13 Levi McCollum: been folks embracing the technology and wanting more of it? Is it somewhere in between?

12:19 David Carr: Well, there’s a paradox when you’re working on a fleet with diesel mechanics.

12:25 David Carr: They are really good at working on diesel buses.

12:27 David Carr: So if a diesel bus breaks, takes them four hours to fix it and they fix two buses a day,

12:31 David Carr: it’s pretty good system. On an electric bus, we are not really sure what’s wrong with it.

12:37 David Carr: The technicians that we’re getting from the OEMs, they’re not really sure what’s going on.

12:42 David Carr: And so they may take a bus.

12:43 David Carr: It might take two or three days to figure out what’s wrong with it and then another couple days to

12:47 David Carr: fix it. Well, you know, are you going to fix, you know, four or five buses, diesel buses, and put

12:53 David Carr: them in service, or are you going to work fix one bus? And other buses are now being sidelined.

12:58 David Carr: And the fact that these buses are covered by a warranty, you have the OAM technicians here fixing the buses,

13:04 David Carr: so why are we going to work on them? We have these guys fixing them under warranty and then when

13:08 David Carr: the warranty expires in two years, we haven’t really learned a lot about them.

13:13 David Carr: And then they’re thrust upon us and we have to start figuring it out from scratch.

13:18 David Carr: So I think there’s some foundational hurdles, structural hurdles that we have to overcome.

13:25 David Carr: And there has to be a way for us to learn about the technology, find a way to get proficient

13:29 David Carr: at it. And then because if you train them today, our technicians today on battery electric buses and they don’t

13:35 David Carr: work on them for two years, well, that training is kind of wasted.

13:39 David Carr: Now. What we’ve done is we’ve developed what we call a hotshot program.

13:42 David Carr: So we have some technicians that are assigned to work on just the battery electric buses.

13:47 David Carr: And so those guys are the seed, right? They’re going to learn how to do this.

13:51 David Carr: They’re going to be the ones that are going to mentor to the other technicians and we’re going to create

13:55 David Carr: an environment where being a high voltage battery electric bus technician is supported and fostered and they’re going to work

14:04 David Carr: with OEM technicians and then we’re going to hopefully establish a pretty solid basis knowledge so that going forward we’ll

14:13 David Carr: be able to fix these buses and maintain these buses as well as our other buses.

14:18 Levi McCollum: It sounds like you have a pretty good plan in place then.

14:22 Levi McCollum: Clearly, it takes more than just your operators, your technicians, your administrative staff.

14:28 Levi McCollum: You also have to have the broader community involved in this transition.

14:33 Levi McCollum: I’m sure. How have the municipalities like the city of Austin and perhaps others, your energy provider, how have, how

14:42 Levi McCollum: instrumental have they been in this transition thus far?

14:46 David Carr: Well, I think they’re supportive. City of Austin is really.

14:50 David Carr: I talk to them frequently. I’m presenting to them tomorrow or Wednesday what our current status of our fleet is.

14:59 David Carr: Generally, the region is very, very supportive of this.

15:03 David Carr: Austin energy really has been. While they’ve been very, very supportive, they really don’t know any more than we knew

15:14 David Carr: about it when we started. So we’re coming to them saying, well, we need you to help us.

15:18 David Carr: And they say, well, what do you need? We said, well, we’re not sure.

15:20 David Carr: Can you tell us? And they’re not.

15:22 David Carr: So we’re really not in the best spot with them because we need to have a way to have our

15:30 David Carr: energy rates and tariffs aligned with what our mission is.

15:34 David Carr: And we’re just getting a general commercial rate.

15:38 David Carr: So if I have a building and I have it on, that’s the rate they’re charging me.

15:42 David Carr: Well, using electricity for fuel is different than using electricity for building and so our charging duty cycles are different.

15:49 David Carr: So we’re working this through this kind of together and we meet with them rather frequently on our capital projects

15:55 David Carr: in our construction. So we’re putting our transformer switch gear in and we’re working with them very, very well and

16:00 David Carr: they’re very, very supportive. But as far as the energy rate, how much we have to pay for the energy,

16:05 David Carr: how we consume the energy, that’s a new field for all of us.

16:09 David Carr: And we’re kind of muddling through that a little bit.

16:12 David Carr: The FTA has been awesome. They are our champion.

16:15 David Carr: They are the ones kind of leading this in a lot of ways.

16:19 David Carr: I work with FTA on a couple of projects.

16:22 David Carr: The funding that we get from the FTA is critical.

16:25 David Carr: We couldn’t move down this path without that.

16:28 David Carr: Their staff is, you know, the staff that I work with directly are really wonderful people and they were doing

16:35 David Carr: a really good job in supporting us.

16:37 David Carr: And I think that, you know, all three Austin Energy, City of Austin FTA have done a really great job

16:45 David Carr: in supporting us and helping us advance to where we are today.

16:49 Levi McCollum: Oh, that’s great to hear. Are there any other key partnerships that you have in the area, you know, perhaps

16:56 Levi McCollum: with some nonprofits or others that you could let our listeners know about and maybe this could give them some

17:02 Levi McCollum: ideas about, you know, how they can further engage their community when they’re making this transition?

17:07 David Carr: Well, the key is your utility provider.

17:10 David Carr: You have to have a great rapport with them and then you have to educate them because they don’t know

17:15 David Carr: anything about electric vehicles and any more than we do at the scale because, you know, battery electric bus has

17:22 David Carr: 660 kilowatts on board, it charges overnight and, you know, we have, we’ll have charging capability between 60kW to 450kW.

17:34 David Carr: And so that’s a lot of energy.

17:35 David Carr: It’s a lot of, a lot of energy for fuel.

17:40 David Carr: Our other partners here are our OEMs, the original equipment manufacturers.

17:46 David Carr: We rely on them for the training and for the knowledge, obviously for the equipment, for tools and support.

17:53 David Carr: On one hand we work with New Flyer and they’ve done a really fantastic job.

17:57 David Carr: They’re providing a lot of resources and they’re really doing their best to keep our buses up and running and

18:03 David Carr: operate on a high level efficiency.

18:06 David Carr: I don’t know if you’ve heard, but Proterra, the buses, we bought 40 of them.

18:10 David Carr: They went bankrupt. Yes, that was a tremendous impact to the industry.

18:14 David Carr: And really, I think it’s a pretty dramatic setback to the industry as a whole and to us as an

18:20 David Carr: agency. The company that’s acquired them, Phoenix Motor Cars, they’re struggling to get their footing and they’re not able to

18:30 David Carr: provide the same level of service.

18:31 David Carr: And we’re hoping that they’re able to kind of come around and get that footing.

18:37 David Carr: But right now we’re not really seeing a lot of support because I Think their resources are just not on

18:42 David Carr: the level as a new Flyer or the Proterra was originally.

18:46 David Carr: Some of our other partners, Camber, Camber was spun off from Proterra.

18:51 David Carr: Camber is the, the charger portion of that.

18:56 David Carr: And so they built our South Ops chargers.

18:59 David Carr: We have two 1.44 megawatt chargers with 48 dispensers.

19:03 David Carr: Those chargers are working really well.

19:05 David Carr: And they’re charging our new Flyer and our Proterra buses, Holt Renewables.

19:09 David Carr: They’re working on our Northrop space where we’re going to have the 4.35 megawatt solar array plus 30 chargers and

19:17 David Carr: 90 pantographs. So this will be one of the largest pantograph deployments in the US and they’re doing a really

19:24 David Carr: good job on putting that together.

19:26 David Carr: And we’ll see that by the end of 2025, beginning of 2026.

19:31 David Carr: Some other partners, Pickle, Westinghouse, they’ve supported us on some of the Chargers and so they’ve been.

19:41 David Carr: And then our consultants, you know, there’s several consultants we work with and they bring a really unique value in

19:47 David Carr: that they have industry experts, subject matter experts that help us.

19:53 David Carr: I’ve been doing this since the inception of electric vehicles in 2013.

19:57 David Carr: So I consider myself a subject matter expert.

20:00 David Carr: And sometimes we argue and actually.

20:04 David Carr: But they’re very good, they’re very supportive and, and using those firms to help us has been invaluable.

20:10 David Carr: As far as workforce development. We’ve really worked with the OEMs, but we’re looking at a couple of things where

20:18 David Carr: we want to develop our own, somewhat like an academy where we’re going to create a training curriculum where all

20:29 David Carr: the technicians and everyone, all the operators get trained on battery electric vehicles.

20:35 David Carr: Um, and so we have a basic level of training, you know, don’t cut the orange wires and how to

20:41 David Carr: operate an electric vehicle to be the most fuel efficient.

20:43 David Carr: So we’re, we’re developing those train, we’re training the trainers, we’re developing those materials and we’ll be able to implement

20:49 David Carr: that in a way that gives us a solid orientation and a way to get started.

20:54 David Carr: But as far as going to the next levels of training, level one, level two, level three, we’re, we’re trying

21:01 David Carr: to sort that out a little bit.

21:03 David Carr: I’ve talked to acc, I’ve looked at other training materials, other different institutes and such.

21:12 David Carr: So we’re looking kind of casting about trying to find a good partner to be able to develop that.

21:19 David Carr: I think it’s important that we have a hands on training Component.

21:23 David Carr: We just hired a training specialist that’s going to be help develop the curriculum and develop the training program and

21:29 David Carr: really that’s going to be a big hands on element.

21:32 David Carr: So the critical point there for workforce development I think is that hands on training, but also that training the

21:41 David Carr: trainer and learning ourselves and tying it back to those hot shots so we have this fundamental knowledge base so

21:51 David Carr: that as we go forward we’ll be able to build on that and any new technology we get, we’ll be

21:56 David Carr: able be more flexible and adaptable to be able to implement that.

22:02 Levi McCollum: Just to follow up there on that acc, that’s Austin Community College, is that right?

22:07 David Carr: Yes.

22:07 Levi McCollum: Okay. Okay. Just wanted to make sure to get that clarification for our listeners.

22:12 Levi McCollum: There was something that you mentioned earlier, David, that I want to go back to Project Connect.

22:17 Levi McCollum: Can you give us just a brief description of what that is and why that even came to be at

22:23 Levi McCollum: Cap Metro?

22:25 David Carr: It’s really about making the communities most sustainable.

22:28 David Carr: We’re leveraging transit resources to enhance sustainability, connectivity and access to opportunities.

22:34 David Carr: Not only opportunities, but to jobs and to education and to, you know, other social resources, whether it’s health, social

22:44 David Carr: services, even just things like libraries and stuff.

22:48 David Carr: So that connectivity is critical and at the core of what we’re doing, but also creating the livable spaces and

22:55 David Carr: especially in historically disinvested communities in the region.

22:59 Levi McCollum: Excellent, thanks for that. You know, I want to kind of wrap up our conversation and talk about some of

23:06 Levi McCollum: the challenges that you faced. It sounds like, you know, on the outside things are going pretty smoothly, but I

23:13 Levi McCollum: know having worked at an agency that, you know, you always hit some hurdles.

23:18 Levi McCollum: And you mentioned the example of Proterra, you know, filing for bankruptcy.

23:24 Levi McCollum: I know that was a huge hit.

23:25 Levi McCollum: Are there any other challenges or concerns that kind of keep you up at night, Levi?

23:31 David Carr: I think there’s, there’s a belief that like, well, the way I explain it is like the bus is the

23:41 David Carr: easy part. You know, you can order a bus, you can buy it and it’s delivered.

23:45 David Carr: That’s the easy part. The infrastructure, the workforce development, the operational integration, all that presents challenges that are new to

23:56 David Carr: us. You know, the diesel technology has been around a long time and so, you know, our technicians are well

24:01 David Carr: versed in it. Our operators know how to drive diesel buses.

24:04 David Carr: So suddenly we’re asking them to drive the bus differently, try not to use as much energy, use the regeneration

24:10 David Carr: capabilities of the bus and make it more efficient.

24:13 David Carr: We’re asking our technicians to plug in a laptop and look at the diagnostics, look at look at codes and

24:20 David Carr: look at other data and assimilate from that, what is it that this vehicle might need? And so those are

24:29 David Carr: the educational challenges, but just the infrastructure building, chargers, getting the, you know, transformers, switch gear, all that stuff built,

24:39 David Carr: you know, none of it happens quickly or overnight.

24:42 David Carr: And then once we have that technology now, it’s like, how do we maintain this, how do we operate this,

24:47 David Carr: how do we do this in a way, how do we use the energy in a way that’s cost effective?

24:51 David Carr: Because if you park all your buses in exactly the same time and charge them all at the maximum capability,

24:56 David Carr: you’re going to get a big electric bill.

24:58 David Carr: So, so how do we do that? How do we, you know, we learn about how electric rates are developed

25:03 David Carr: and, and build and we say, well, maybe we don’t charge them all at the same time.

25:08 David Carr: Maybe we spread that out and we reduce that peak over a period of time or use software or other

25:14 David Carr: things to make it so we can manage that better.

25:17 David Carr: So from going from a diesel bus where you just put the nozzle in and fill it up, to being

25:21 David Carr: almost energy managers, we’re managing the amount of energy we’re using.

25:28 Levi McCollum: I see. So is there, is there a specific software that you’re using right now to be able to manage

25:34 Levi McCollum: this energy and make sure that you go to charge, you know, a portion of your vehicles that you’re, you’re

25:40 Levi McCollum: not going to be hit with such a huge electricity bill? Or is that part of the ecosystem that is

25:46 Levi McCollum: yet to be fully developed?

25:49 David Carr: I think the latter. I think we’re really, we have software that’s resident on our equipment, so we have bus

25:55 David Carr: software, we have charger software. The thing is, we have, you know, nine different kinds of buses and seven different

26:01 David Carr: kinds of chargers. And so there’s, there’s no one pane of glass to look at all this and to try

26:09 David Carr: to come up with a way to integrate that.

26:11 David Carr: And then we’re also looking at our building management systems and our other things in terms of being more sustainable.

26:17 David Carr: So now we’re looking at, with our electric micro grid facilities, building management systems, our charger management systems, our bus

26:28 David Carr: telemetry, we have a whole new arena of technology software.

26:33 David Carr: And it’s really, it’s intriguing. I’ve been working with our, we have an analyst that’s dedicated to help us to

26:40 David Carr: look at our vehicle performance, look at our charger performance and trying to find a way that we can optimize

26:48 David Carr: this without impacting operations. Because that’s really the key.

26:51 David Carr: You know, it doesn’t matter how much how we do it, as long as the buses all make pull out

26:56 David Carr: and as long as they operate efficiently and effectively, that’s what we want to get to.

27:00 David Carr: But behind the scenes, there’s ways to do that in a way that doesn’t cost as much.

27:04 David Carr: There’s ways to monitor it and manage it in a way that it’s unique and will enhance the way we

27:09 David Carr: deliver maintenance. And we can be more efficient and we can put optimize where these vehicles are operating and how

27:16 David Carr: they’re being operated. And then on the energy side, really, if we can utilize all these resources in a way

27:22 David Carr: that lowers our carbon footprint overall, it makes for a much better agency than just diesel buses driving around all

27:30 David Carr: the time.

27:32 Levi McCollum: Right, right. Completely understandable. And Christian and I have had similar conversations on the Stop Requested podcast about some of

27:40 Levi McCollum: the potential drawbacks of electric vehicles.

27:43 Levi McCollum: In the sense that you don’t want to offer the electric vehicles at the expense of frequency on a route.

27:51 Levi McCollum: If you’ve got 20 minute headway and you have to go to 30 minute headway because of charging restraints or

27:58 Levi McCollum: things like that, then you’re, you’re actually hurting the folks that you’re trying to serve.

28:03 David Carr: Well, I agree with that to some extent.

28:06 David Carr: But you know, I think the best form of transportation in terms of sustainability is, is a bus.

28:11 David Carr: You know, you can put 30, 40, 60, 100 people on a bus.

28:14 David Carr: That’s 30, 40, 600 cars that are not on the road.

28:18 David Carr: So it doesn’t really matter what we’re fueling them with because that’s inherently more sustainable.

28:25 David Carr: Now when we add electric buses there or a hydrogen bus or any other technology.

28:30 David Carr: Yeah, there is that. But at the same time, for example, on our BRT routes, we’re gonna, when that’s fully

28:36 David Carr: built out, we’re gonna have 450 kilowatt chargers at end of line.

28:42 David Carr: So the bus will go out and it’ll drive on the route.

28:44 David Carr: When it comes back, It’ll charge for 15, 20 minutes.

28:47 David Carr: It’ll pick up, you know, a 10, 20, 30% state of charge and be able to take the lap again.

28:52 David Carr: And over the course of the day, it can, it can operate indefinitely with that type of configuration.

28:59 David Carr: So there’s ways you can do this that doesn’t affect headways and doesn’t impact that as long as you have

29:05 David Carr: the infrastructure to support it. And that’s where it gets complicated because how much charging do you need? Where, how

29:10 David Carr: long does it need to charge and then how many buses do you need? So it becomes maybe less it

29:16 David Carr: becomes less than simple arithmetic, arithmetic equation.

29:20 David Carr: And because it becomes a, an algorithm, you have to start looking at, well, what are all the, what are

29:26 David Carr: all the different variables and what are all the different calculations we have to do in such a way to

29:30 David Carr: make this work.

29:33 Levi McCollum: Are there any other pieces of advice that you can offer some of our listeners who perhaps are working at

29:39 Levi McCollum: transit agencies?

29:41 David Carr: Well, I think that you want to explore it, you want to see if it fits in your application.

29:49 David Carr: I think there’s opportunities to reduce your emissions.

29:52 David Carr: That doesn’t mean you have to go full electric, but there’s certainly things you can do to, to improve your

29:56 David Carr: efficiency and how you operate. I think that, you know, I worked in a smaller agency, so we went small.

30:05 David Carr: We had four buses and you know, and then we got 17 buses, you know, and so don’t.

30:11 David Carr: I think that if you go big, it’s a big problem.

30:17 David Carr: You know, I think if you can find incremental ways to start, you can, you can find a niche that

30:22 David Carr: it works in. Our first four buses in Reno went on a six mile circular downtown and the buses range

30:29 David Carr: was like 35 miles. Yet we operated that circulator for several years.

30:33 David Carr: It was working fine. But we had in route charging.

30:37 David Carr: So the technology that we use and the application we had fit the duty cycle that we had.

30:43 David Carr: And so when we had that, it was a good opportunity.

30:46 David Carr: But if you’re a smaller agency or a rural area, your distances are so long and the margin for error

30:55 David Carr: is greater in terms of, I mean, the equipment reliability and such.

31:00 David Carr: You really need to have dependable vehicles.

31:02 David Carr: So, and not to say that these aren’t dependable, they’re just, they’ve proven to be more problematic and they’re harder

31:07 David Carr: to repair. There’s a whole learning curve to it.

31:11 David Carr: And so there’s a lot more to it than, you know, the basic diesel technology.

31:16 David Carr: So I would go small, I would go, you know, very.

31:21 David Carr: Be very aware of your duty cycle and just see if you can find that niche.

31:27 David Carr: And then if that’s successful and it’s working, then you move forward from there.

31:31 David Carr: But, but baby steps, crawl before you walk and walk before you run.

31:37 Levi McCollum: That’s great advice. And that really applies to a lot of things in life.

31:39 Levi McCollum: Right. To start small, I think sometimes we can get in a little bit over our head, you know, over

31:47 Levi McCollum: our skis a bit and that can come back to bite us.

31:49 Levi McCollum: So that, that is really good advice.

31:52 Levi McCollum: And David, I want to say I really appreciate this conversation for you agreeing to, come on, it’s been really

32:00 Levi McCollum: an excellent 30 minutes here, so thank you so much.

32:04 David Carr: Well, thank you, Levi. I really appreciate the opportunity.

32:07 Levi McCollum: Thank you to all of our listeners.

32:09 Levi McCollum: We will be back next week with another episode of Stop Requested.